Language Creation Society – Basically, this DRV is a debate between two options: endorse AfD outcome without disallowing recreation but recommending that it be AfC-drafted first, and undeleting the existing article (and probably seeing it relisted at AfD quickly). Both sides present reasonable arguments: post-AfD coverage, and less-than-perfect AfD closure. I think it is well-within admin discretion to close this DRV as a middle ground before the two: undelete the article and move it to draftspace to require AfC review before mainspacing again. This seems the best compromise between "undelete and probably AfD again" and "allow recreation in draftspace".. – ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 19:41, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Language Creation Society (talk`\|`edit`\|`history`\|`logs`\|`links`\|`watch) (XfD`\|`restore) WP:DRVPURPOSE 3 (significant press post-AFD). See http://conlang.org/axanar/#press for copious links to third party press (most in re. LCS' participation as amicus in Paramount v Axanar, but several also discussing the history of the LCS and its other activities). See also: Language Creation Conference, deleted by same AFD, previously merged into LCS page. Disclosure: I (Sai) am the founder of the LCS. However, my page edits have been strictly WP:NPOV, limited to small factual information. Sai ¿?✍ 10:33, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply] Endorse. There is a new flurry of coverage of the LCS-funded amicus after the AfD closed. There's no indication that the close was incorrect on the grounds of coverage not provided during the first AfD. Supposing the article were recreated at this point, I doubt it would survive another AfD. All of this winds up being not independent for WP:GNG purposes since they're all based on the same story, and by and large all on the same sources. Many are interviews, which aren't helpful for GNG purposes either. There might be an argument for a redirect to an article covering the controversy over the Klingon language. But honestly, Wikipedia is not a news source or press release reprinter. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 11:47, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply] Slight correction: LCS didn't "fund" the amicus; it was done pro bono (i.e. free) by Marc Randazza. The LCS was the amicus curiae. As for your last part, I was not suggesting that WP is a "press release reprinter", merely that the press coverage is pertinent to LCS' notability, which was the basis for the AFD. I would oppose a redirect to a page on the Klingon lawsuit; the LCS has existed since 2007 (or 2005, if you count the Berkeley group), and this is just one of many things it's done. Reducing the LCS to "that group that filed the Klingon amicus" would, at best, be misleading. Sai ¿?✍ 11:55, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply] This amicus is the only thing LCS has gotten anything approximating significant coverage for. As an experienced Wikipedia editor you surely understand that redirecting a topic of marginal importance to the sole subject for which it has some notability is a routine practice on Wikipedia. In any event, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. It's far too soon into any of this to actually argue that this story has real permanence. WP:RECENTISM strongly counsels against recreation on the basis of a bunch of interrelated news stories all triggered by a single event. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 12:45, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply] Undelete, albeit for a different reason. I wasn't going to pursue this, but let me tell you one thing: I was furious when I read what the closing admin concluded: Ignoring a WP:COI editor's comments, unanimous agreement to delete. Well, that "WP:COI editor" would be me, and let me assure you: I do not appreciate it to be treated like some kind of teenager who shows up here for no other reason than to promote his rock band. I have been an active member of the Wikipedia community for twelve years now. And yes, I am also a member of the LCS, which I have never denied. Both things demonstrate that I have at least a basic idea of what I am talking about, which clearly cannot be said about the two deletion "votes", since the one uses arguments that are plainly incorrect and the second one doesn't use any arguments at all. In this case it is clear that the closing admin simply couldn't be bothered to read the discussion and elected qualifying two votes as "unanimous agreement" instead, simultaneously (apparently triggered by the magical abbreviation "COI") disqualifying an inconvenient third vote. I hope I don't need to explain that such closure is a violation of deletion policy, because a) the deletion process is not a vote, and there is no policy stating that arguments given by people who are somehow related to the subject are to be ignored. I would also like to point out that the argument about recentism won't fly here: neither was the article was based on a single event, nor should this single event be the only reason for undeleting it. I suggest restoring it, fixing it, and then perhaps relisting it and have a decent discussion. —IJzeren Jan _Uszkiełtu? 23:13, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply] Endorse If there's more to be said, start a new article in draft space. DGG ( talk ) 23:55, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply] Undelete. The LCS is certainly notable, and is worthy of an article in our Wikipedia. I also note IJzeren Jan's comment, and having seen several such "summary judgements" of late. -- Evertype·✆ 10:49, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply] DRV isn't a second round AfD, so arguments about notability aren't particularly relevant here. The question is whether the first AfD was properly closed. IJzeren Jan's argument was appropriately discounted by the closing admin. Even without fully discounting it, the closing admin could have found consensus to delete in the arguments. At worst, the closing admin might have relisted. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 13:12, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply] Mendeliv, I know Wikipedia long and well enough to know that this is just your private opinion, and that there is no policy whatsoever that supports your claim. Writing all kinds of nonsense is your democratic right, but denying another person the right to refute it is unelegant, to say the least. —IJzeren Jan _Uszkiełtu? 16:18, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply] My arguing that closing admins may discount !votes, or that an AfD with 3 cogent arguments in favor of deletion and only one argument in favor of keeping—regardless of any of the affiliations of the commenters—could not have been closed as keep is hardly a personal opinion or contrary to policy. Closers are absolutely allowed to consider participants' affiliations, though really it wasn't even necessary here. You made no persuasive argument in favor of keeping at the AfD. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 18:18, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply] Please note that I listed this as [[WP::DRVPURPOSE]] 3: "if significant new information has come to light since a deletion that would justify recreating the deleted page". I pointed to that new information — namely, information that bears on the LCS' general notability. Mendaliv, are you saying that is not permissible in DRV? Sai ¿?✍ 23:04, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply] Pretty sure that's intended as information of something that happened during the AfD that was wrongful. There's generally no need for a DRV where a previously-AfD'd subject may have become notable subsequently. That said, simply adding new sources does not mean that a recreated article isn't subject to being AfD'd again, or even speedily deleted per G4. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 23:36, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply] Endorse The closing statement was properly justified since IJzeren Jan is affiliated with the group, which shows untrusted bias opinion. Also, the content of the article did not match/correlate with sources being the official LCS website only and like two blog sites per WP:NOTBLOG. If anyone is going to try and recreate the article, I highly recommend start a draft and go through AFC. Also, @IJzeren Jan, refrain from personal attacks. — JudeccaXIII (talk) 17:09, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply] It's funny you are accusing me of personal attacks. The only attack I can see here is directed against my own person. Until now, I haven't seen anybody providing a link to a policy page that says arguments by people with a certain affiliation are to be ignored. It is this sort of things that sometimes make me regret that I have had to goddamned decency to work openly, under my own name, something that cannot be said about most other WP editors. As a Wikipedian, I have more than 16,000 edits over a time span of over twelve years. A large portion of these edits have been in the field of constructed languages (including maintaining a featured portal virtually on my own), simply because that happens to be my biggest interest. And then, all of sudden, nothing of all that counts, only because somebody assumes that I have a conflict of interest. Assumes, because this person knows neither me nor my motivation. I have replied that I do not have a conflict of interest at all, and that my participation in this discussion is simply because constructed languages are what I have been doing on Wikipedia for much longer than the LCS even existed. And indeed, during all those years I have never participated in a deletion discussion about a subject I was not knowledgeable about. Yet, the only response has been that apparently I am frustrated, and that my arguments are biased and unreliable. Which in itself is already a clear violation of another policy, namely WP:AGF. Secondly, my opinion is of no consequence, as is yours or anybody else's. I'm not asking that my arguments should resolve anything, but merely that they are taken seriously. A decent deletion debate is about proving your own arguments and disproving the arguments of your opponent, not on the sort of ad hominem reasoning that caused all this. And please, let us separate opinions and facts. Let me give you one example. Mendeliv argues: "164 ghits is a bad sign". These 164 ghits (currently 173) are a fact. That they are a bad sign, is an opinion. Curious to find out if this is really a bad sign, I tried a few others: British National Party – 148 ghits; Prawo i Sprawiedliwość (the political party that is currently turning Poland into a dictatorship) – 110 ghits; Beata Szydło, prime minister of Poland – 118 ghits; and Barack Obama – 181 ghits. Conclusion: either the LCS is more notable than the prime minister of Poland, the party that rules Poland and the BNP, and only slightly less notable than the president of the USA; or there is something wrong with Google. —IJzeren Jan _Uszkiełtu? 21:52, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply] @IJzeren Jan It's obvious in your replies that you can't maintain civility. Because of your current behavior, I am basically going to echo what the closing statement was from the AfD discussion, WP:COI. Also, Wikipedia doesn't care how long we as editors edit or if we are scholars. Are time on Wikipedia is WP:VOLUNTEER, not a job. Right now, I'm putting my faith in those in this discussion willing to cooperate instead of having a fit about unfairness. — JudeccaXIII (talk) 23:28, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply] You surely have strange ideas about civility, but okay. IMHO discarding arguments merely because you doubt someone's motives is not only unfair, it is also a sign of weakness. And unwise too, because the ultimate purpose of these debates is to make a better encyclopedia (which can be achieved by deleting bad articles, but also, if possible, by improving them). You don't serve that purpose by dropping a bomb and then saying: I won't listen to your arguments, because you probably make them for the wrong reasons. That's simply not the kind of attitude I can appreciate, volunteer or not. I don't ask anybody here for credentials, and I am more than willing to assume that you are acting in good faith, but I feel entitled to expect the same in return. It's all about respect, you know. If I am angry, it is not about the deletion itself (seeing how things work here these days, it was to be expected), but about the tone of the discussion. Therefore, I can only repeat what I wrote earlier: a closure based on selectively reading the discussion, ignoring valid arguments and counting votes while disqualifying inconvenient opinions is very much nót according to policy. —IJzeren Jan _Uszkiełtu? 01:48, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply] (edit conflict)These are all arguments that should have been brought up during the AfD, though they are non sequiturs—first because WP:OSE, second because each of those topics facially pass WP:NBIO or WP:NORG based on sources presented. Search engine testing was helpful with LCS because it's such a young organization whose noteworthy dealings and activities should have attracted coverage by indexed sources. The absence of such sources upon searching, and the failure of those arguing to keep to present such sources during the AfD was why the AfD ended in delete. In any event, DRV isn't the place to relitigate the closed AfD. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 23:31, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply] Mendaliv, of course, it's that I noticed that Google is behaving strangely ("United States": 389 ghits – need I say more?), so that your 170 ghits are not necessarily a bad sign at all. And of course, I am well aware of the fact that this is not the place to relitigate the AfD. Honestly, I'd much rather have had this discussion there instead of here. —IJzeren Jan _Uszkiełtu? 01:48, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply] Are you suggesting that sources for objective facts about the LCS, like its activities, officers, years of operation, conference dates/locations, etc., should come from non-LCS sources? You realize that when journalists write about us, they ask us for that info, or get it from our website, or get it wrong? Sai ¿?✍ 21:14, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply] Per WP:NNC, objective facts like these don't need to come from independent sources, provided the article's notability is already established. However, the sources needed to establish this notability must, per WP:GNG, be independent. Uanfala (talk) 21:22, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply] So all you want are articles about the LCS to establish its per se notability, not third party sources of the factual content. Correct? If yes, how are the articles cited above, and the books & articles cited in the deleted page, defective in that respect? From a zero-effort Google search, here are a bunch more (pre-Axanar): https://newrepublic.com/article/122961/fantastical-rise-invented-languages http://scienceline.org/2016/02/speaking-in-invented-tongues/ http://www.wired.com/2014/10/geeks-guide-dothraki-klingon/ http://mentalfloss.com/article/49763/7-fun-facts-about-dothraki-language-game-thrones http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/game-thrones-dothraki-inventor-talks-origin-season-3s/story?id=18843120 https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2014/04/05/yes-writing-languages-for-game-thrones-real-job/4eyOZKW5EVL6Mt8qBQJ20L/story.html http://entertainment.time.com/2010/04/12/today-in-fictional-language-news-hbo-speaks-dothraki/ http://www.tor.com/2010/04/22/creating-dothraki-an-interview-with-david-j-peterson-and-sai-emrys/ http://www.britannica.com/list/6-fictional-languages-you-can-really-learn http://alumni.berkeley.edu/california-magazine/summer-2014-apocalypse/game-allophones-word-whiz-creates-languages-shows-game There's also http://conlangingfilm.com, which was shot in part at the the 6th Language Creation Conference. Sai ¿?✍ 21:33, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply] We went over most if not all of this in the AfD. This isn't the AfD. The time to make these arguments was during the AfD. There's nothing here to indicate that the closure of the AfD was erroneous or otherwise improper. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 22:55, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply] endorse and relist. The only procedural thing I'd disagree with the closer on is the COI comment. The editor in question does have ~3000 edits over a decade including a fair bit at AfD and I'd hope could be trusted to understand our inclusion guidelines. Past that I think the close was reasonable. @Citobun:'s !vote indicated he'd be open to new sources. We have some that may well count (supplied above) that weren't discussed in the AfD. That leaves the nom and one !vote for deletion and one for keep. A reasonable relist situation. I'm pinging Citobun so he can address if those sources are enough for him to wish to withdraw his !vote or change it. Hobit (talk) 14:10, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply] I'll say that the listed sources above were considered, although they weren't explicitly named. I don't intend to relitigate AfD here, but the long and short is that the sources available, including those listed above, did not comprise significant coverage of the organization itself, as opposed to Dothraki or the creator of Dothraki. Even supposing the note about IJzeren Jan's COI shouldn't have been made, it would be a form of harmless error—even taking IJzeren Jan's arguments into consideration it was still well within the closing admin's discretion to conclude that there was consensus to delete. Were we to strike the closing admin's comment about COI, we would still have a valid delete, even if it is would be a close call on the numbers. We should be deferring to the closing admin. If there is new coverage, a new article or draft could be created, though it remains to be seen if such article or draft would survive a deletion process. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 15:31, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply] I'm unclear how you can say the listed sources were considered. I got the sense that Citobun didn't see those sources. And as far as I can tell, no one really identified problems with the sources. I'm not seeing a lot of in-depth coverage of the topic, but I _am_ seeing a lot of non-trivial coverage. Those sources really should have been discussed at the AfD if they were known at the time. Another reason for a relist IMO. Hobit (talk) 19:57, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply] I certainly saw and considered them. When I made my arguments at the AfD about ghits, I had in fact at least looked at all the ghits. While I didn't make a point-by-point of everything, I don't think that should be held against me. Had these specific sources been brought up during the AfD as counterexamples to my claim that there was no significant coverage, I would have happily done a source-by-source dissection of those sources. I see no reason to question the closing admin's discretion in reading the consensus, let alone do this sort of Monday morning quarterbacking (though really this is more like three months later quarterbacking). —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 13:50, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply] Comment by closing admin. Looking at my close again, I don't see any problems. Downweighting opinions from COI editors is standard practice at AfD. That being said, there was not a huge amount of participation, so I wouldn't have any objection to this being relisted in the hopes of getting wider input. I also support the idea of creating a new article in draft space, with the additional sources, and pinging the various people who commented in the original AfD to see if the new article changes their mind. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:11, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply] Endorse. DRV is not AFD round 2. Stifle (talk) 08:39, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

Language Creation Society – Basically, this DRV is a debate between two options: endorse AfD outcome without disallowing recreation but recommending that it be AfC-drafted first, and undeleting the existing article (and probably seeing it relisted at AfD quickly). Both sides present reasonable arguments: post-AfD coverage, and less-than-perfect AfD closure. I think it is well-within admin discretion to close this DRV as a middle ground before the two: undelete the article and move it to draftspace to require AfC review before mainspacing again. This seems the best compromise between "undelete and probably AfD again" and "allow recreation in draftspace".. – ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 19:41, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.

WP:DRVPURPOSE 3 (significant press post-AFD).

See http://conlang.org/axanar/#press for copious links to third party press (most in re. LCS' participation as amicus in Paramount v Axanar, but several also discussing the history of the LCS and its other activities).

See also: Language Creation Conference, deleted by same AFD, previously merged into LCS page.

Disclosure: I (Sai) am the founder of the LCS. However, my page edits have been strictly WP:NPOV, limited to small factual information. Sai ¿?✍ 10:33, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse. There is a new flurry of coverage of the LCS-funded amicus after the AfD closed. There's no indication that the close was incorrect on the grounds of coverage not provided during the first AfD. Supposing the article were recreated at this point, I doubt it would survive another AfD. All of this winds up being not independent for WP:GNG purposes since they're all based on the same story, and by and large all on the same sources. Many are interviews, which aren't helpful for GNG purposes either. There might be an argument for a redirect to an article covering the controversy over the Klingon language. But honestly, Wikipedia is not a news source or press release reprinter. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 11:47, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Slight correction: LCS didn't "fund" the amicus; it was done pro bono (i.e. free) by Marc Randazza. The LCS was the amicus curiae. As for your last part, I was not suggesting that WP is a "press release reprinter", merely that the press coverage is pertinent to LCS' notability, which was the basis for the AFD. I would oppose a redirect to a page on the Klingon lawsuit; the LCS has existed since 2007 (or 2005, if you count the Berkeley group), and this is just one of many things it's done. Reducing the LCS to "that group that filed the Klingon amicus" would, at best, be misleading. Sai ¿?✍ 11:55, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This amicus is the only thing LCS has gotten anything approximating significant coverage for. As an experienced Wikipedia editor you surely understand that redirecting a topic of marginal importance to the sole subject for which it has some notability is a routine practice on Wikipedia. In any event, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. It's far too soon into any of this to actually argue that this story has real permanence. WP:RECENTISM strongly counsels against recreation on the basis of a bunch of interrelated news stories all triggered by a single event. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 12:45, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Undelete, albeit for a different reason. I wasn't going to pursue this, but let me tell you one thing: I was furious when I read what the closing admin concluded: Ignoring a WP:COI editor's comments, unanimous agreement to delete. Well, that "WP:COI editor" would be me, and let me assure you: I do not appreciate it to be treated like some kind of teenager who shows up here for no other reason than to promote his rock band. I have been an active member of the Wikipedia community for twelve years now. And yes, I am also a member of the LCS, which I have never denied. Both things demonstrate that I have at least a basic idea of what I am talking about, which clearly cannot be said about the two deletion "votes", since the one uses arguments that are plainly incorrect and the second one doesn't use any arguments at all. In this case it is clear that the closing admin simply couldn't be bothered to read the discussion and elected qualifying two votes as "unanimous agreement" instead, simultaneously (apparently triggered by the magical abbreviation "COI") disqualifying an inconvenient third vote. I hope I don't need to explain that such closure is a violation of deletion policy, because a) the deletion process is not a vote, and there is no policy stating that arguments given by people who are somehow related to the subject are to be ignored.
I would also like to point out that the argument about recentism won't fly here: neither was the article was based on a single event, nor should this single event be the only reason for undeleting it. I suggest restoring it, fixing it, and then perhaps relisting it and have a decent discussion. —IJzeren Jan _Uszkiełtu? 23:13, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse If there's more to be said, start a new article in draft space. DGG ( talk ) 23:55, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Undelete. The LCS is certainly notable, and is worthy of an article in our Wikipedia. I also note IJzeren Jan's comment, and having seen several such "summary judgements" of late. -- Evertype·✆ 10:49, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- DRV isn't a second round AfD, so arguments about notability aren't particularly relevant here. The question is whether the first AfD was properly closed. IJzeren Jan's argument was appropriately discounted by the closing admin. Even without fully discounting it, the closing admin could have found consensus to delete in the arguments. At worst, the closing admin might have relisted. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 13:12, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  - Mendeliv, I know Wikipedia long and well enough to know that this is just your private opinion, and that there is no policy whatsoever that supports your claim. Writing all kinds of nonsense is your democratic right, but denying another person the right to refute it is unelegant, to say the least. —IJzeren Jan _Uszkiełtu? 16:18, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    - My arguing that closing admins may discount !votes, or that an AfD with 3 cogent arguments in favor of deletion and only one argument in favor of keeping—regardless of any of the affiliations of the commenters—could not have been closed as keep is hardly a personal opinion or contrary to policy. Closers are absolutely allowed to consider participants' affiliations, though really it wasn't even necessary here. You made no persuasive argument in favor of keeping at the AfD. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 18:18, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  - Please note that I listed this as [[WP::DRVPURPOSE]] 3: "if significant new information has come to light since a deletion that would justify recreating the deleted page". I pointed to that new information — namely, information that bears on the LCS' general notability. Mendaliv, are you saying that is not permissible in DRV? Sai ¿?✍ 23:04, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    - Pretty sure that's intended as information of something that happened during the AfD that was wrongful. There's generally no need for a DRV where a previously-AfD'd subject may have become notable subsequently. That said, simply adding new sources does not mean that a recreated article isn't subject to being AfD'd again, or even speedily deleted per G4. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 23:36, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse The closing statement was properly justified since IJzeren Jan is affiliated with the group, which shows untrusted bias opinion. Also, the content of the article did not match/correlate with sources being the official LCS website only and like two blog sites per WP:NOTBLOG. If anyone is going to try and recreate the article, I highly recommend start a draft and go through AFC. Also, @IJzeren Jan, refrain from personal attacks. — JudeccaXIII (talk) 17:09, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- - It's funny you are accusing me of personal attacks. The only attack I can see here is directed against my own person. Until now, I haven't seen anybody providing a link to a policy page that says arguments by people with a certain affiliation are to be ignored. It is this sort of things that sometimes make me regret that I have had to goddamned decency to work openly, under my own name, something that cannot be said about most other WP editors. As a Wikipedian, I have more than 16,000 edits over a time span of over twelve years. A large portion of these edits have been in the field of constructed languages (including maintaining a featured portal virtually on my own), simply because that happens to be my biggest interest. And then, all of sudden, nothing of all that counts, only because somebody assumes that I have a conflict of interest. Assumes, because this person knows neither me nor my motivation. I have replied that I do not have a conflict of interest at all, and that my participation in this discussion is simply because constructed languages are what I have been doing on Wikipedia for much longer than the LCS even existed. And indeed, during all those years I have never participated in a deletion discussion about a subject I was not knowledgeable about. Yet, the only response has been that apparently I am frustrated, and that my arguments are biased and unreliable. Which in itself is already a clear violation of another policy, namely WP:AGF.
    Secondly, my opinion is of no consequence, as is yours or anybody else's. I'm not asking that my arguments should resolve anything, but merely that they are taken seriously. A decent deletion debate is about proving your own arguments and disproving the arguments of your opponent, not on the sort of ad hominem reasoning that caused all this. And please, let us separate opinions and facts. Let me give you one example. Mendeliv argues: "164 ghits is a bad sign". These 164 ghits (currently 173) are a fact. That they are a bad sign, is an opinion. Curious to find out if this is really a bad sign, I tried a few others: British National Party – 148 ghits; Prawo i Sprawiedliwość (the political party that is currently turning Poland into a dictatorship) – 110 ghits; Beata Szydło, prime minister of Poland – 118 ghits; and Barack Obama – 181 ghits. Conclusion: either the LCS is more notable than the prime minister of Poland, the party that rules Poland and the BNP, and only slightly less notable than the president of the USA; or there is something wrong with Google. —IJzeren Jan _Uszkiełtu? 21:52, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@IJzeren Jan It's obvious in your replies that you can't maintain civility. Because of your current behavior, I am basically going to echo what the closing statement was from the AfD discussion, WP:COI. Also, Wikipedia doesn't care how long we as editors edit or if we are scholars. Are time on Wikipedia is WP:VOLUNTEER, not a job. Right now, I'm putting my faith in those in this discussion willing to cooperate instead of having a fit about unfairness. — JudeccaXIII (talk) 23:28, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You surely have strange ideas about civility, but okay. IMHO discarding arguments merely because you doubt someone's motives is not only unfair, it is also a sign of weakness. And unwise too, because the ultimate purpose of these debates is to make a better encyclopedia (which can be achieved by deleting bad articles, but also, if possible, by improving them). You don't serve that purpose by dropping a bomb and then saying: I won't listen to your arguments, because you probably make them for the wrong reasons. That's simply not the kind of attitude I can appreciate, volunteer or not. I don't ask anybody here for credentials, and I am more than willing to assume that you are acting in good faith, but I feel entitled to expect the same in return. It's all about respect, you know. If I am angry, it is not about the deletion itself (seeing how things work here these days, it was to be expected), but about the tone of the discussion. Therefore, I can only repeat what I wrote earlier: a closure based on selectively reading the discussion, ignoring valid arguments and counting votes while disqualifying inconvenient opinions is very much nót according to policy. —IJzeren Jan _Uszkiełtu? 01:48, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)These are all arguments that should have been brought up during the AfD, though they are non sequiturs—first because WP:OSE, second because each of those topics facially pass WP:NBIO or WP:NORG based on sources presented. Search engine testing was helpful with LCS because it's such a young organization whose noteworthy dealings and activities should have attracted coverage by indexed sources. The absence of such sources upon searching, and the failure of those arguing to keep to present such sources during the AfD was why the AfD ended in delete. In any event, DRV isn't the place to relitigate the closed AfD. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 23:31, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Mendaliv, of course, it's that I noticed that Google is behaving strangely ("United States": 389 ghits – need I say more?), so that your 170 ghits are not necessarily a bad sign at all. And of course, I am well aware of the fact that this is not the place to relitigate the AfD. Honestly, I'd much rather have had this discussion there instead of here. —IJzeren Jan _Uszkiełtu? 01:48, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

- Are you suggesting that sources for objective facts about the LCS, like its activities, officers, years of operation, conference dates/locations, etc., should come from non-LCS sources? You realize that when journalists write about us, they ask *us* for that info, or get it from our website, or get it wrong? Sai ¿?✍ 21:14, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:NNC, objective facts like these don't need to come from independent sources, provided the article's notability is already established. However, the sources needed to establish this notability must, per WP:GNG, be independent. Uanfala (talk) 21:22, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So all you want are articles about the LCS to establish its per se notability, not third party sources of the factual content. Correct? If yes, how are the articles cited above, and the books & articles cited in the deleted page, defective in that respect?

From a zero-effort Google search, here are a bunch more (pre-Axanar):

https://newrepublic.com/article/122961/fantastical-rise-invented-languages

http://scienceline.org/2016/02/speaking-in-invented-tongues/

http://www.wired.com/2014/10/geeks-guide-dothraki-klingon/

http://mentalfloss.com/article/49763/7-fun-facts-about-dothraki-language-game-thrones

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/game-thrones-dothraki-inventor-talks-origin-season-3s/story?id=18843120

https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2014/04/05/yes-writing-languages-for-game-thrones-real-job/4eyOZKW5EVL6Mt8qBQJ20L/story.html

http://entertainment.time.com/2010/04/12/today-in-fictional-language-news-hbo-speaks-dothraki/

http://www.tor.com/2010/04/22/creating-dothraki-an-interview-with-david-j-peterson-and-sai-emrys/

http://www.britannica.com/list/6-fictional-languages-you-can-really-learn

http://alumni.berkeley.edu/california-magazine/summer-2014-apocalypse/game-allophones-word-whiz-creates-languages-shows-game

There's also http://conlangingfilm.com, which was shot in part at the the 6th Language Creation Conference. Sai ¿?✍ 21:33, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

We went over most if not all of this in the AfD. This isn't the AfD. The time to make these arguments was during the AfD. There's nothing here to indicate that the closure of the AfD was erroneous or otherwise improper. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 22:55, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

endorse and relist. The only procedural thing I'd disagree with the closer on is the COI comment. The editor in question does have ~3000 edits over a decade including a fair bit at AfD and I'd hope could be trusted to understand our inclusion guidelines. Past that I think the close was reasonable. @Citobun:'s !vote indicated he'd be open to new sources. We have some that may well count (supplied above) that weren't discussed in the AfD. That leaves the nom and one !vote for deletion and one for keep. A reasonable relist situation. I'm pinging Citobun so he can address if those sources are enough for him to wish to withdraw his !vote or change it. Hobit (talk) 14:10, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll say that the listed sources above were considered, although they weren't explicitly named. I don't intend to relitigate AfD here, but the long and short is that the sources available, including those listed above, did not comprise significant coverage of the organization itself, as opposed to Dothraki or the creator of Dothraki. Even supposing the note about IJzeren Jan's COI shouldn't have been made, it would be a form of harmless error—even taking IJzeren Jan's arguments into consideration it was still well within the closing admin's discretion to conclude that there was consensus to delete. Were we to strike the closing admin's comment about COI, we would still have a valid delete, even if it is would be a close call on the numbers. We should be deferring to the closing admin. If there is new coverage, a new article or draft could be created, though it remains to be seen if such article or draft would survive a deletion process. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 15:31, 29 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  - I'm unclear how you can say the listed sources were considered. I got the sense that Citobun didn't see those sources. And as far as I can tell, no one really identified problems with the sources. I'm not seeing a lot of in-depth coverage of the topic, but I _am_ seeing a lot of non-trivial coverage. Those sources really should have been discussed at the AfD if they were known at the time. Another reason for a relist IMO. Hobit (talk) 19:57, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    - I certainly saw and considered them. When I made my arguments at the AfD about ghits, I had in fact at least looked at all the ghits. While I didn't make a point-by-point of everything, I don't think that should be held against me. Had these specific sources been brought up during the AfD as counterexamples to my claim that there was no significant coverage, I would have happily done a source-by-source dissection of those sources. I see no reason to question the closing admin's discretion in reading the consensus, let alone do this sort of Monday morning quarterbacking (though really this is more like three months later quarterbacking). —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 13:50, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment by closing admin. Looking at my close again, I don't see any problems. Downweighting opinions from COI editors is standard practice at AfD. That being said, there was not a huge amount of participation, so I wouldn't have any objection to this being relisted in the hopes of getting wider input. I also support the idea of creating a new article in draft space, with the additional sources, and pinging the various people who commented in the original AfD to see if the new article changes their mind. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:11, 31 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. DRV is not AFD round 2. Stifle (talk) 08:39, 1 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.