- Pontypridd Urban District Council election, 1898 (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
This is something of a procedural request. I closed the AfD on this article five days ago, and today an editor asked me to reopen it (see User talk:Deor#Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pontypridd Urban District Council election, 1898) because a particular WikiProject had not been notified. Unsure of the best way to handle the request, I'm asking here whether the AfD should be reopened or relisted or the closure be allowed to stand. Deor (talk) 00:09, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll be the first to admit that I rely on AAlertBot but that's not grounds to throw out the result. Everyone, including the article creator, eventually favored moving the content elsewhere. Unless a relist provoked a rash of comments favoring outright deletion, the most that could happen is no consensus, and editors could still redirect the article anyway. Mackensen (talk) 01:08, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- note the following discussion which makes this trial balloon AFD a bit more important, as there are a great many articles in the same boat which I plan to nominate for deletion (and will of course notify the project in question now that I am aware it exists) Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Politics#Local_Election_Results_.28Particularly_in_Wales.29 Gaijin42 (talk) 01:11, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse- Seems a fair reading of the AfD discussion. Overturning it because a wikiproject was not notified would not be right. It would imply that certain wikiprojects own certain articles, and that their permission is required before the rest of the community can reach consensus regarding those articles. Reyk YO! 06:27, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse. The close was an accurate reading of the discussion. A failure in the ArticleAlert Bot is not a procedural failure in the AfD process that warrants an AfD being re-opened. But if Gaijin42's foreshadowed next lot of AfDs result in a different outcome, we should come back and re-visit this one. --Mkativerata (talk) 08:35, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Relist The relevant WikiProject was not notified of the AfD and knowledgeable editors did not have a chance to comment. It's not an issue of ownership (disappointing this was brought up, but sadly increasingly typical of the attitude towards people who may know what they're talking about), it's about getting informed comment in the debate. Number 57 10:49, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse Wikiprojects don't own articles any more than individual editors do. See WP:OWN. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 11:36, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse 1. given that their is no process requirement to explicitly notify any users of a debate, that isn't really any reason to reopen it. 2. As the merged article currently stands it doesn't look like there would be anything that could be added to the debate (as opposed to adding content) which would make the close look problematic and (3) if there is more content etc. which can be added by wikiprojects or others as some point in the future, and unmerging is always an option. --86.2.216.5 (talk) 18:13, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Further comment A WikiProject member has helpfully pointed out that several AfDs have previously been held on local election articles and all resulted in the articles being kept (e.g. here, here, here, here, here, here). This perfectly illustrates my point that if someone familiar with the topic area had been able to contribute to the AfD, then the result would likely have been different due to the numerous examples of past consensus regarding local election notability. Number 57 19:23, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Wikipedia doesn't do precedent so merely presenting those should have effectively been ignored. More so the ones you list are from 6 years or more ago (except one, about 3 years). --86.2.216.5 (talk) 19:27, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Wikipedia does do precedent – it's taken into account in numerous AfDs, including several of those listed above. See WP:OUTCOMES. Number 57 19:46, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, my impression is that WP is erratic in following precedent. A long line of consistent decisions, without any (or hardly any) contradictory ones , is in practice a guideline. A few decisions on an issue is another matter. Decisions which have been consistently followed in the past, but where the same matter is not consistent now, indicates a probably abandoned guideline. (Which of these three is relevant here will take further examination) A guideline is what we do consistently. What we label it is irrelevant. DGG ( talk ) 20:10, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse the judgement of the closing admin. Also note that there has been no deletion, and the redirect may be reversed on establishing a consensus at the target's talk page. WikiProjects should see up systems to track pages they are interested in, and there is no requirement to notify them. If no one in the WikiProject is watching the page, then either it is a dormant WikiProject, or the page is barely of interest. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:41, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- @SmokeyJoe: There is a system to track them - the Alerts page - but it failed to pick this AfD up (which I have been complaining about elsewhere, and also tried to get to the bottom of why). The WikiProject is not dormant. Number 57 08:25, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, I know. Something was broken, and people who relied on it were left out. However, the onus should be on the WikiProject members to ensure that the alert system is working, not the AfD process required to ensure that the WikiProject's alert system is working. "Overturn because the auto alert system was down" is unpersuasive, in the absence of a case that the decision made was wrong. The closing admin closed it correctly. There was nothing wrong with the AfD process. There is no harm done requiring a DRV "overturn". The nominator should have taken the substance of any object to the redirect target's talk page. I agree with the closer, on his talk page, that there is not a good reason to unclose the AfD. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:33, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- @SmokeyJoe: But I'm not asking for it to be overturned ,as you can see from my comment above - I'd like it relisted so that WikiProject members have a chance to add to the debate. And I think your argument about the onus to ensure the system is working is rather unfair - it's only possible to spot when it's not working when it doesn't pick up something - it's impossible to see when something is failing to pick up nothing! Number 57 08:41, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Are you maintaining that the WikiProject members would like to revisit the discussion to argue "Delete don't redirect"? Otherwise, there is no role for DRV here. DRV is not needed to reverse a redirect decision. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:45, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- @SmokeyJoe: Where does an editor gain consensus to restore an article that was redirected as the result of an AfD? Number 57 08:53, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- On the talk page of the target, at Talk:Pontypridd Urban District Council. This is especially appropriate if it is true that "as the merger of significant content appears to be a fait accompli". (Deor (talk) 20:21, 1 August 2014 (UTC)) Or am I missing something? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:02, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse. No person or group has a right to be notified of a deletion discussion; if something goes technically awry that usually would send an alert, that shouldn't invalidate the discussion just because someone didn't show up. Tarc (talk) 12:44, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- *sigh* No-one has said that anyone has a "right" to be notified. All I'm trying to say is that the discussion would have been better informed if knowledgeable editors were involved in the debate. I wasn't even asking for it to be overturned - just relisted so that more people could have a chance to comment. I really don't understand the aversion to this. I've given up hope now, but it's very depressing to see such a negative attitude towards having an informed debate. Number 57 12:58, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- What's there to be "better informed" about"? It's an article about a 116yr-old election, not a topic that requires a degree in nuclear physics or medicine. IMO, it is better to attract discussion from outside a topic area anyways. Fresh eyes, less biased, etc... Tarc (talk) 13:43, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Past deletion discussions on similar topics, for a start. And I agree it is good to have comment from outside the topic area as well, but there should be both. Number 57 13:55, 8 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse, the situation is not ideal, but I don't think that failure to notify a Wikiproject is a procedural error serious enough to warrant overturning a discussion, especially given that the discussion was open for more than the minimum amount of time. Lankiveil (speak to me) 23:52, 8 August 2014 (UTC).[reply]
- Be allowed to stand Edit history was kept, and there is neither a deletion nor a failure to delete to review here. Any editor making a good edit (i.e., improving the encyclopedia) can WP:BOLDly reverse the close. Unscintillating (talk) 02:10, 10 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- Relist There is no absolute requirement to notify a contributor that the article is listed for deletion, but not doing so is no prejudicial to the purposes of WP, and to WP:Deletion Policy which to is retain content if at all, that I think failure to do so in the case of a good faith contributor can be a sufficient reason to relist a discussion. This is especially true of a deletion that is intended specifically to set a precedent for wider action, as is admittedly the case here. I casn think of no valid reason for not doing it, and I think an explanation is necessary. (The reasons it has never been formally approved as a requirement is first , the difficulty of sometimes identifying all sufficiently substantial contributors, and second the difficulty of defining the circumstances where it need not or should not be done). Even though this paticular decision can just be reverted as a merge, the principle of notifying is important. DGG ( talk ) 18:55, 11 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- DGG What explanation do you think is necessary? Why I didn't notify that particular wikiproject? The answer is simple, I didn't even know it existed, but I did notify 3 wikiprojects Politics, England and Wales. Note that neither article discussed in the AFD had any template about the wikiproject under question on them so unless one knows every wikiproject in existence, it would be unwise to say that projects which are not even on the talk page must be notified imo. To slightly complicate the particular articles in this AFD/DRV, the creator of the articles was blocked due to prolific socking during the discussion (though their master has now been unblocked as they have provided an explanation of why they were socking, and were not aware of the socking policy) . However, as this was intended to be a test balloon, I have no objection to wider notification - but on the other hand a swarm of people from a single wikiproject also isn't super valuable in determining a real neutral consensus either... It would be helpful if this wikiproject and the wider community could propose some notability criteria for elections as the core issue here is are these particular elections notable (and by extension, are all elections notable, since these are pretty close to the end of the line of size/impact) - As we learned from the MMA fiasco though, proponents of a particular topic area are likely to say that much more is notable than what the average editor thinks.Gaijin42 (talk) 01:51, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- I recognize that this type of situation is exactly the sort that make automatic notification difficult.Sometimes the only effective notification is deletion review, and that has been one of the purposes here. I too have several times used afd for establishing consensus on an issue; the way of establishing it is not a single afd, precisely because of the problem of variable attendance and notification, but consistent decisions. (Incidentally, if we do have another discussion at afd, I expect to support your proposal for merging.) DGG ( talk ) 05:46, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
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