Observium (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (restore)

The deleter failed to notice that the article wasn't a new article, but merely an existing article which had already been through the deletion/notability process which had been rename Adamathefrog (talk) 01:31, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Overturn – Doesn't look like the article falls under WP:CSD#G11. –MuZemike 03:53, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Overturn Per MuZemike, there's nothing particularly promotional about the version that was deleted. It could reasonably be taken to AfD on sourcing/notability grounds, but nothing in that article merited speedy G11. Jclemens (talk) 06:11, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It was taken to AFD. You can see the result at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Observer (Software). ☺ Uncle G (talk) 07:17, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, then it could reasonably be taken to AfD again, couldn't it? Jclemens (talk) 16:41, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Speedy restore deleter hadn't noticed that an AfD, under a different name, had kept this and so not eligible for speedy. Not an unreasonable error, but should be restored at this time. Hobit (talk) 08:49, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've contacted the closing admin, which the nom seems to have neglected to do. Hobit (talk) 08:54, 24 July 2010 (UTC) My bad, missed the notice he'd given. Hobit (talk) 08:56, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Overturn. In my opinion it's not spammy enough for G11. Also as it survived an AfD it probably wasn't a speedy candidate per WP:CSD - "If a page has survived a prior deletion discussion, it should not be speedy deleted except for newly discovered copyright violations." I suspect the deleting admin may not have noticed that it has survived an AfD and they have not been active since they were informed it had so they may yet reverse their decision. Finally the deleting admin has stated on their talk page that "After two years you had still not managed to add any evidence of notability so it got deleted." Given that lack of notability is not a reason to speedy delete software (as it's excluded from A7) I find this statement odd and it gives the impression that this article was deleted for an invalid reason even if it isn't actually the case. Taken together it's best if this article is restored and taken to AfD if desired. Dpmuk (talk) 08:54, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually, he was aware and refused to restore it after Adamathefrog pointed it out to him (see deleting admin's talk page). I'm finding a number of G11 speedies by this admin that look questionable but I can't see the deleted articles to be certain. Hobit (talk) 09:10, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • RFA is thataway Hobit and its high time you got yourself some tools. Spartaz ^Humbug! 09:42, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • The admin involved was made aware of a previous request for deletion due to notability and so I gave them the benefit of the doubt and assumed they didn't know it had previously survived an AfD. Speedy deleting an article that has previously been denied as a speedy is in a different league to deleting one that had survived an AfD, even if both are against guidelines. The admin had not been active since before the link to the AfD was posted until about midday today. Dpmuk (talk) 21:03, 25 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn & list at AFD This was never a G11, COI isn't a speedy rationale but this hasbeen unsourced long enough that further discussion is necessary. Spartaz ^Humbug! 09:45, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

/Comment: I have temporarily restored the history of the article so that the discussion can be facilitated for the non-admins also. DGG ( talk ) 22:08, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Overturn. Not exclusively promotional, if promotional at all. Strange call. --Mkativerata (talk) 20:36, 25 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Endorse my deleteion. Apologies, deletion was for lack of "credible assertion of importance" rather than evidence of notability. And after two years it still lacked that credible assertion. Where was I advised that the article had survived a previous AfD? If Adamathefrog had told me that I might have acted differently. Instead he chose to descend into personal abuse. — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 10:14, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • From that same section on your talk page "Hi, The Observium article was not a new article, it was a move of the existing ObserverNMS article, which had existed since 2008 (and had been kept despite an early request to delete it do to its notability). Please undelete the article. I suggest that in future you check to make sure that "new" articles aren't merely moved articles and be less heavy handed in deletion." I agree his response to you was an attack, but he was also right. A)You should have checked the history and B) this had made it though AfD and so isn't eligible for speedy deletion. He didn't use standard Wikipedia jargon explaining the situation, but I think his point was clear enough. Hobit (talk) 16:09, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Perhaps that argument will be valid the day they start teaching the general populace Wikipedia administravia classes in school, until then, the vast majority of people probably will not understand jargon and procedures, though I expect that is a subject which is well understood. RHaworth seems to be quite rude to everyone from what I've seen, and that prompted the tone of my response to him.
      • Even if true, it turns out on Wikipedia (and usually in life) you are better off being polite in the face of rudeness. In fact I think you get bonus points in the great Wikipedia karma train for being polite in the face of unreasonable behavior. Stern can be okay, but rude almost never. :-)Hobit (talk) 19:15, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The wording you quote there seems like it's based on the A7 criteria but as I'm sure you're aware A7 only applies to articles on certain topics and software is not one of these topics. "Web content" is but I believe it's generally held that when a program is downloadable and runnable on a computer this is not web content but rather software and so ineligible for A7.
• Overturn Even if the requester hurt the deleters feelings it doesn't change the fact that this article is not eligible for speedy deletion.--Cube lurker (talk) 20:07, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Overturn & list at AFD Based on what has come to light above about the previous status of the article, it isn't eligible for speedy G11, but it certainly warrants more discussion at AfD for non-notability. That much is obvious. Lahnfeear (talk) 15:50, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Epic browser (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

The closing admin failed to recognize that the browser is notable as being the first web browser from India designed specifically for Indian taste. In addition, Epic did receive sufficient news coverage from reliable sources for its release...the can be found at: http://www.epicbrowser.com/media1.html Smallman12q (talk) 11:40, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Is there any reason you did not discuss the closure with NativeForeigner prior to filing this DRV? NW (Talk) 12:34, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No...should I have?Smallman12q (talk) 12:51, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and that list has actually expanded quite a lot from when I deleted it, 12 hours ago. NativeForeigner ^Talk/_Contribs 16:30, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of people don't notice they are supposed to contact the closing admin. They miss the box that starts with "If your request is completely non-controversial..." because that conditional doesn't apply to them they don't read further. I've changed some stuff to make it more clear. Probably should just move stuff instead... Hobit (talk) 16:38, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've further clarified the box and have started a thread at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#WP:DRV_contacting_closing_admin_first.Smallman12q (talk) 19:25, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse I have been glad the closer actually paid attention in this discussion. I believe URL showing press mentions has been growing in response to this deletion by Wikipedia. Authors of the article were from that company using Wikipedia for promotion. This should stay deleted until someone without conflict of interest makes a fresh recreation without the deleted material. Miami33139 (talk) 00:17, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have look at the media URL from Epic and am not impressed that any of these sources are not just more download links and press release repeats. Miami33139 (talk) 01:05, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Almost all are Press releases and blogs, but the first two from the The Times of India and PCworld would appear to be RSes. Hobit (talk) 08:46, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Overturn though the close wasn't unreasonable there are now two very good sources (first two in link provided above) and a number of poorer sources things might well be reliable. !vote in the discussion was clearly toward keep and now we meet WP:N. Hobit (talk) 08:46, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I felt this article is notable in more than one way

• As the first web browser customised specifically for Indian users (features like Indan languages can be typed in any of the fields of a web page) and the media publicity achieved through which;
• It contains many hiped features, like incorporated anti-virus, and the debates related to them whether they are worth to use or not

there are reviews either promoting the browsers or pointing out faults. to get some information in NPOV, i (hopefully like many) searched Epic Browser in the wikipedia :( hari 11:42, 24 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hbkrishnan (talk • contribs)

Four paragraphs in a localized edition of PC World, which are still just restatements of the talking points in the press release, do not mean the product would meet the notability guidelines. Miami33139 (talk) 21:53, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm not against overturning it, to be honest, as the list of sources continues to grow. NativeForeigner ^Talk/_Contribs 21:48, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

temporarily restored for discussion at Deletion Review DGG ( talk ) 22:11, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please note the link is at Epic (web browser).Smallman12q (talk) 00:41, 25 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• the press release seems to have been regurgitated in a number of reliable sources, but they all seem to be simply regurgitations of the press release at this time. Active Banana (talk) 23:16, 26 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Times of India and PCworld, two significant publications, took a press release and used it as part of an article. Both have by-lines of their own writers. Hardly a regurgitation and in any case, the point is that reliable sources covered the material themselves, which is the core of WP:N. If they based it mostly on a press release an interview, or anything else isn't overly relevant to WP:N. Hobit (talk) 16:13, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's quite relevant. If we allowed press releases to satisfy WP:N, we'd have a ton of pages on products that are totally non-notable, but which media outlets regurgitated because they get paid to. If ToI and PCWorld India write an independent review on the browser, rather than just "hey, it exists based on this press release," then it would satisfy WP:N. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 21:30, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Sure, a cut-and-paste from a PR release would be useless. PCworld clearly used it and liked it (and said so) and is a real review. The Times of India is less clear. Hobit (talk) 17:02, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Franz Vohwinkel (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

The discussion was 4 to 2 to keep including the nominator. As the closer mentioned one of the keep !votes was very weak, two claimed that while there was only one independent RS that could be found the massive scope of his work makes him notable, and one claimed that sources likely exist (assumedly due to that massive scope). WP:N is a guideline. As we all know we often delete articles that meet WP:N because the discussion shows that the subject "just isn't notable". This one provides significant evidence (read the discussion) that he is notable. In addition there are plenty of RSes beyond the one solid RS, from which to write a quality article. They just aren't independent (such as his own bio) or in depth (such as the databases which list all of his works). In summary, we have one source for WP:N, plenty of material to write an article with, and a strong indication that the person has a body of work that is notable. Hobit (talk) 01:45, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. If, as the closer correctly states, the Delete arguments are "...all soundly grounded in policy and guideline" (and the Keep arguments are not), but the guy is actually famous, should the AfD have been closed as Delete? I wouldn't have done it, but he did, and that's within his discretion as a closer. Herostratus (talk) 05:17, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Endorse- if you take away the personal attacks, the mistaken assertion that AfD is a vote, and the forlorn hope that (despite all evidence to the contrary) there's sources out there somewhere, there's nothing left on the keep side. Correct close. Reyk _YO! 05:41, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Endorse as per Reyk. Vague assertions that there are sources out there don't cut it. The burden of proof to verify and provide citations is on users seeking to include or retain material. Stifle (talk) 08:05, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • We often delete articles that do meet WP:N because the subject "hasn't done anything notable". WP:N is a guideline and that cuts both ways. Could you give an example of an article where WP:N isn't met but yet you would say it should be kept anyways? If not, are you claiming WP:N is a lower bound? I'm honestly trying to understand how someone with the credits this guy has (more than 300 major projects to his name) isn't worthy of inclusion if _anyone_ not meeting WP:N will ever be. As Alzarian16 Hullaballoo Wolfowitz indicated there are plenty (and I do mean lots) of RSes that briefly mention him (things like "art is great as you'd expect from Franz Vohwinkel"). Hobit (talk) 22:05, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Not that I disagree with what you've said there, but my comment didn't mention sources... Alzarian16 (talk) 12:07, 25 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Opps. Fixed, thanks. 18:38, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
• Overturn, probably to no consensus, possibly to relisting. The closing rationale is good up to a point, but I have to disagree with its conclusions. One strongish keep, three weakish keeps and two fairly strong deletes doesn't seem to me like a consensus to delete. The AfD was relisted a week ago, and the only comment since then was a keep. If a delete close wasn't appropriate then, it's even less appropriate now. I'm all for administrative discretion but this one seems to take it a little too far. Alzarian16 (talk) 08:56, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Overturn as per Alzarian16. Commercial artists are notable principally for creating notable work, and there seems little doubt that the subject's work has received significant reliable coverage, as was established in the AFD. I don't see an "I can't find sources" claim as a soundly grounded in policy !vote; when there are as many potentially usable sources as turn up i a basic Gsearch, [1] [2] [3] [4] examples, the advocates for deletion need to do something more than strongly state their position; they need to credibly explain their basis for holding that position. Saying "I can't find sources" isn't really much more strongly grounded in policy than "Look at all the Google hits I found" is. Also, the closer inappropriately characterized a comment on the nominator's pattern of nominations as "ad hominem," which it wasn't, and shouldn't have discounted it on that basis alone. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 16:00, 23 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Firstly, DRV is not AfD Round 2. Secondly, it is wrong to say "I can't find sources" is ungrounded in policy because that is the very essence of our verifiability policy. Thirdly, the supposed sources you mention are mostly fansites: I was unconvinced of their reliability then the AfD was open and remain so now. Fourthly, on what grounds do you claim the "ad-hominem" vote should be counted? Reyk _YO! 00:34, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Overturn relist+1 keep != delete. On a more detailed note, are the notability guidelines being applied appropriately to commercially successful artists? I strongly suspect not. Jclemens (talk) 06:15, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I have temporarily restored the history of the article so that the discussion can be facilitated for the non-admins also. DGG ( talk ) 22:15, 24 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• Overturn as "no consensus" at the very least. I know that my comment in the AFD wasn't a particularly strong one, but I did make it before Hobit found more sources. BOZ (talk) 02:35, 25 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Endorse - Solid close, grounded in a very reasonable application of policy. Eusebeus (talk) 14:04, 25 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Overturn to keep, which was the consensus. The keeps arguments were that for this particular article, the sources were sufficient to meet the intent of the guideline. As guidelines are flexible, if the clear majority of the people present think that an exception should be made, it is made. The judgment about when to interpret a rule flexibly or even to use IAR is that of the community, not the admin. If the admin wanted to argue that the aticle did not reasonably meet the guideines, he should have contributed to the discussion. DGG ( talk ) 15:34, 25 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Overturn per consensus at AfD. And, although this isn't AfD2, there's quite a bit about him in the German media.[5][An award http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Vohwinkel] - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 03:29, 26 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Overturn to no consensus. Just a little too far outside a reasonable reading of consensus, in my view. NW obviously didn't think there was consensus when he or she relisted on 1 July, and just one keep !vote later it was closed as delete. AfDs are allowed to set guidelines to one side, for good reason, when considering the inclusion of an article: Hobit certainly gave good reason, and DGG obviously concurred with it. I don't think these !votes ought to be lightly dismissed (unlike the other keep !votes). --Mkativerata (talk) 05:30, 26 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Overturn to no consensus but permit relisting. Although I understand the closer's rationale, I cannot agree with it. I agree with them discounting the "ad hominem" !vote as no argument was given to support it given that the nominators actions do not seem disruptive. I also think it's reasonable to give less weight to "I am confident that more sources" as they don't actually list any examples and this isn't a topic where internet sources should be hard to come by (due to the age of the topic). However I think that both the other keep !votes were grounded in policy and guidelines, both WP:IAR and the message at the top of every guideline (which WP:N is), specifically "though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply", suggest there will be cases where strict application of guidelines does not make sense. We have to allow consensus to change and new consensus to develop and in the case of deletions the best place for this is often at AfDs - if a "common sense exception" is cropping up often enough then the guideline probably needs changing. One !keep vote clearly appealed to this sort of argument and although the other could have been clearer it's obvious to me that they were as well. With two !keep votes and two !delete votes both giving reasoned arguments I think this should have been closed as no consensus, or possibly re-listed. I know a second re-list is rare but I would like to see more discussion of the keep arguments presented here, given that they are arguing for an exception, so think this may have been one of those cases where it made sense to do so. With that in mind I would specifically allow a speedy relisting, with appropriate opening rationale, so this side of the argument could be discussed further. Dpmuk (talk) 08:51, 26 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Overturn to keep as there was no consensus for deletion. Keep votes addressed the issue of notability and assert that it was met, and there appears to be no reason to disregard this consensus. Alansohn (talk) 04:30, 27 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. As Franz has illustrated at least three of my games, it would wrong for me to comment on the keep-or-don't merits of the article, or the close itself. But I think I can comment neutrally on the notability issue. In the game hobby, Franz has major notability. He is one of the most sought-after artists in the German-style board game industry, having illustrated over 300 board games, including Puerto Rico, The Settlers of Catan, and most of the other major games in the genre.--Mike Selinker (talk) 17:12, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Overturn I have to agree with Alzarian16's analysis of the debate. The consensus, based on weighting the arguments presented in the AFD, was not "delete". I'd even go as far as to agree with DGG that it was keep, based on very good reasons presented at the AFD and here that Vohwinkel is probably notable enough to warrant an article here but I won't disagree with a overturn and relist close. It's quite clear from the discussion here that further discussion to decide this article's faith would be beneficial. Regards SoWhy 19:47, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]