- Quiet Internet Pager (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
Article was restored and userfied following a request at WP:REFUND, the author wishes it returned to the article namespace, and the deleting administrator requests community review. Please judge the userspace draft at User:Elk Salmon/Quiet Internet Pager. Skomorokh, barbarian 00:43, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The article was deleted by just 4 votes. 3 never heard of it and 1 was "smooth" reason. It's was proposed as ostensibly non-notable software.
But the program de facto holds over 70% of IM market in CIS[8]. It's just market-specific and not known outside of the market. There might be no any more public polls on IMs, but Alexa rank makes it enough clear. Program's official site is 25th in Russia with the worldwide rank of 549. Far ahead, as example, of Trillian (26,464), Miranda IM (20,718) or Pidgin (13,976). We have an article about market-specific Baidu, about market-specific Yandex. We have articles on Trillian, Miranda or Pidgin. But CIS is all up to ICQ, MSN is not present on CIS market at all, Same as like Google is not popular in Russia, Yandex is. Or Firefox and IE are not popular in Russia, Opera is. That's a very specific IT market. And QIP program has very large share worldwide, but just almost no share in west states due to MSN. I find the notability as very high. Elk Salmon (talk) 01:29, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't see why there are users that don't understand that we don't need to have previously heard of it. That is what the guidelines are for. Joe Chill (talk) 03:13, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I think that the current article is enough to satisfy WP:N. You might want to use Google Translate on the non-English sources. Joe Chill (talk) 03:15, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It looks pretty marginal to me, and it needs a detailed discussion of the sources. But the proper place for such a discussion is not DRV; the basic purpose of this page is for challenging deletion decisions. Sources should discussed in detail at XFD, not here. I shall say permit re-creation with no prejudice against an AfD if notability is in question.—S Marshall Talk/Cont 17:22, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Ugh. What is the proper community forum for judging userfied versions of deleted articles? They're not wanted at WP:REFUND or WP:RM either. Skomorokh, barbarian 17:28, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Now that's a bloody good point. If there's no proper forum, and discussion is needed, then per IAR, any forum will do. Striking my remark and reconsidering.—S Marshall Talk/Cont 17:31, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The Softpedia and Lenta sources (references number 3 and 4) look good to me. The others, not so much. At the moment I'm tending towards "permit re-creation", but I also feel the article should be trimmed down to those things that can unequivocally be sourced to Softpedia, Lenta or any other reliable source that can be unearthed. In taking this view I had a certain amount of regard for countering systemic bias.—S Marshall Talk/Cont 17:44, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Permit restoration Yes, you could restore it without asking us, see if it was speedy deleted as G4, and then appealed it here, which is the correct formal procedure, but you might as well get the decision now. We are NOT A BUREAUCRACY ` DGG ( talk ) 19:35, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Permit restoration I had planned to improve this article myself as I've already done with a number of these that were part of a mass-AfD campaign but if someone else beat me to it, so much the better. This article was part of a mass-AfD that was actually directed at me personally in revenge for tagging prodded articles for the WP:COMP workflow and for sourcing a number of other articles and having them kept at AfD. The irony with this specific article is that it was only loosely related to articles that I had been working on and was merely listed in the same navigational template. The details can be found on a subpage of AN/I here. --Tothwolf (talk) 23:05, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- You can still improve it. I'm not a proffy of large texts myself. Mind there are also BayanICQ and Ya.Online messengers have no articles at all. First one is among most popular S60 non-MSN IM clients, seconds is Yandex analog of Google Talk. Elk Salmon (talk) 23:22, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I probably will work on the article at some point. I have a lot of ongoing projects at present and the individual who nominated these for deletion is still initiating more AfDs to "get at me", albeit at a much slower pace. Their most recent AfD nom that they directed at me can be expanded and sourced easily but I have no intentions of participating in that AfD or improving the article while it is at AfD as it will only lead to them canvassing for meatpuppets like last time. --Tothwolf (talk) 23:43, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Tothwolf, we're here to decide about this particular article. DRV basically makes rulings on whether a particular deletion discussion was closed appropriately. By convention, it's not absolutely restricted to such things, and there have been times when DRV has decided to go beyond those bounds, but it's certainly true that DRV is about content and not conduct. In other words, we can help reverse a particular decision if appropriate, but we cannot help you with any issues with a particular editor. Sorry.
You'll see people opine from time to time that "DRV is explicitly a drama-free zone". What this means is that conduct disputes are best not raised here.—S Marshall Talk/Cont 00:51, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not a newbie either and I know how both AfD and DRV work. The original AfD itself wasn't done in good faith and I have absolutely no issue at all with someone picking up the pieces from that AfD and fixing that needs to be fixed with the article in question. I won't however remain silent about the larger issue and allow it to slip through the cracks as absolutely nothing has been done to address the AfD nom's behaviour (which is ongoing) and with what originally happened with those mass-AfDs. --Tothwolf (talk) 02:02, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I have insufficient familiarity with software sourcing norms to comment on the article, but I agree with the filing here. A successful DRV would inoculate the article against a G4 speedy. Flatscan (talk) 04:15, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Stronger sources first, please Lenta and Yandex would suffice our "multiple" and "reliable" requirement, but the mentions there are very small. Miami33139 (talk) 18:21, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Wikistalker be gone! --Tothwolf (talk) 20:17, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It looks to me you won't accept any sources at all. Yandex finds over 10 million pages by QIP request with over 680000 monthly requests[9] comparing to just 77000 monthly requests on Miranda[10], Lenta with a refer to TNS says RBC services has got 14,4 million of unique monthly users, with QIP most popular among them. Just third to Yandex and Mail.ru services. Alexa says qip.ru has got 545 rank worldwide and 24 in Russia. And KanICQ has a massive public poll with over 60000 users voted from Russia, over 70% of them voted for QIP. If this is not strong for you than i guess you won't accept any sources at all. Same goes to S60 phone clients. Agile has got 2900 requests, Nimbuzz 2800 and BayanICQ+БаянICQ has got 5600 close to fring's 8400. Elk Salmon (talk) 16:34, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:POPULARITY. Numbers and statistical data are great things to have in an article, but they do not establish notability. Notability is the criteria under which the article was deleted and significant sources should be found before it is recreated. Yandex and Lenta are good sources, but they do not provide significant coverage. I have changed my mind in AfD discussions multiple times when new sources have arisen. This isn't one of them. Miami33139 (talk) 17:20, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It doesn't matter what sort of information you present, User:Miami33139 will argue against product reviews and even books that cover the subject no matter what [11] [12] [13] Miami33139 does not like software articles at all (especially articles about multimedia software) and they seem to rather enjoy targeting them for deletion. I found the exchange in the ConceptDraw Project AfD enlightening with regards to Miami33139's tactics.
The BitchX, PIRCH, and WeeChat AfDs which were part of the mass-AfD campaign Miami33139 and JBsupreme initiated to "target" me are also worth reading. The WeeChat article actually had plenty of references already present in the article when Miami33139 nominated it for AfD while making claims such as "contains only self-published sources". And hey, when all else fails (i.e. "no consensus to delete"), [14] Miami33139 will simply gut the article. [15]
WP:DUCK --Tothwolf (talk) 18:36, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- This applies to statements with no backup statistics. With QIP and further BayanICQ statistics of actual popularity is provided. Moreover, a bunch of statistics provided above does not show only popularity, but also significantly large coverage on the web. The last is the indicator for WP:N. Elk Salmon (talk) 19:49, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Permit restoration - Article is not too promotional, is reasonably balanced, and includes sourced criticism of their inadequate Unicode support! I would still be good if the article creator would provide English translations of all the references. A quick look shows 1.2 million Google hits, though this is not decisive until someone studies the hits. EdJohnston (talk) 20:12, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Permit recreation. If there are still sourcing concerns, AfD is the proper venue. This is not a G4. Tim Song (talk) 06:30, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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