- Category:Wikipedians in the Association for Computing Machinery (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (restore|cache|UCFD)
Only reason given for delete is "precedence" (all other "votes" for delete cited nom). Collaboration (which no one challenged) seems more important than following a dubious precedence, as precedence seems to be just another name for WP:ALLORNOTHING in this case. Ben Hocking (talk|contribs) 14:09, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Define "collaboration."--WaltCip (talk) 14:16, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- See collaboration. Ben Hocking (talk|contribs) 14:20, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Define collaboration in the context of a Wikipedia category such as this without blue-linking me to an article. You have chosen a position with which to justify your stance; let us see you defend it in your own words if it means so much to you.--WaltCip (talk) 14:28, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I thought it was crystal clear. Collaboration in this context refers to editors in wikipedia working together to improve articles related to issues that members in the ACM can be expected to have expertise on. Is that clear enough now or do I need to define "context", "editors", and "improve"? I apologize for being somewhat snarky, but I fail to see how this wasn't clear from the outset. You've been here long enough to know what collaboration means, haven't you? (On the off chance that you don't know what those articles might be, I'd recommend that you read the Association for Computing Machinery article and visit the ACM themselves.)Ben Hocking (talk|contribs) 15:28, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- What you're missing is: duplicative. Other than the article of the association itself, there are no other articles to "collaborate" on, except those which we "presume" that those who are members "might" wish to collaborate on. Too many maybes and wishful thinking there. There are plenty of computing "by interest" categories with which to foster collaboration. Why duplicate them with this less-than-helpful category? - jc37 11:49, 25 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn/relist- Wikipedia:Overcategorization was put forth as a basis for deletion, but I couldn't determine from the discussion why this category was Overcategorization. "Other societies/fraternal organisations have been recently deleted" is not a good reason to delete. More discussion was needed to determine a delete consensus. Relist with a nomination that is focused on Wikipedian category points to be discussed. -- Jreferee t/c 19:18, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. Nom obviously doesn't know how WP works. In addition to nothing be wrong with the AfDs...everything he is proposing is in violation of some policy...whether it be ownership of an article, conflict of interest, not adhering to a neutral POV, etc. --SmashvilleBONK! 22:49, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- This comment doesn't seem to apply to either me or the original nom (of the actual UCFD). Is it possible you replied to the wrong section? (For one thing this is a UCFD not an AfD, for another, I do not see how I nor the UCFD nom have anything to do with WP:COI, WP:OWN, or WP:NPOV…) Ben Hocking (talk|contribs) 23:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Correct...I must have clicked edit on the wrong DRV. It was meant for the one below. --SmashvilleBONK! 03:55, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn the closure was on the basis of "nomination is in good faith and is valid. " which is certainly not a reason for deciding one way or the other. I note one of the comments at the discussion, repeated several times by the same person, was "If there is equally no reason to keep and no reason to delete, then the will of the nominator takes precedence" which is equally contrary to established policy. DGG (talk) 23:05, 20 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Response - just because the phrase "nomination is in good faith and is valid." followed the decision does not mean that was the basis for the decision. This was merely a comment in response to the comment on that and similar UCFDs from that time period which all had a comment posted to the effect that these nominations were not valid. My comment was meant only to show that, as the closing admin, I had read that comment and found it, in fact, to be invalid, rather than the nomination being invalid. Furthermore, the balance was not tipped by the will of the nominator comment, so the decision should not be overturned on that basis either. --After Midnight 0001 00:35, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- COMMENT - It is bad enough when DRV nominators do not attempt to discuss with the closing admin first, but is it too much to ask that they at least be notified? --After Midnight 0001 00:08, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse - There is ample precedent for this decision. Keep rationales of "time to reverse the trend" and this is not a valid deletion reason are not particularly persuasive in the opposition of that precedent. --After Midnight 0001 00:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- As one of the commenters who said it was invalid deletion reason, I would like to point out that, as far as I know, no one ever claimed the nomination was in bad faith. Quite the contrary, I believe it was in good faith. However, "precedence" is an invalid deletion rationale as it equates to essentially WP:ALLORNOTHING.
- As for not discussing it with you first, I was unaware that this was a part of the process. I apologize. Ben Hocking (talk|contribs) 01:00, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, as has been noted elsewhere, both "OTHERSTUFFEXISTS" and "ALLORNOTHING" are less applicable to Category discussions than for other discussions, since categories are sets of sets of sets (ad infinitum). So usually, attempting to rename something contrary to the obvious "convention" of a category will get numerous "ALLORNOTHING" responses, which would be deemed appropriate, since the goal is to reduce bureaucratic overhead and not have listed out "conventions" for every category. The same applies here, if in the past a categorisation scheme was deemed a "bad idea" (that's right, this wasn't a precedent of a single category folks, it was several, over several separate nominations), then - "per precedent" - this one is likely a bad idea too. It's very much a "valid" nomination statement, and one which is common throughout CfD, (not just UCFD). - jc37 11:49, 25 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong overturn: I tried to tell them at CfD they were being disruptive by nominating a shitton of articles based on "We deleted other things before", but nobody wanted to listen. Maybe now people will listen that that's not a valid reason for deletion!!!!!!!!!!!!⇒SWATJester Son of the Defender 01:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- NOTE TO CLOSER If, as Swatjester suggests, there are a bunch of recent (e.g., within the past few weeks) CfDs like this were "precedent" is the basis for the deletion, please close this DRV with a statement that permits you to apply the close of this DRV to those CfDs. There's no reason to receive a flood of CfD appeals to redecide an issue already considered at DRV. Perhaps the close of this DRV can be applied by the DRV closer to CfDs listed on or after 14:09, 5 November 2007 and closed before 14:09, 20 November 2007 (the posting time of this DRV). Something similar to this was done in Multiple reality show categories DRV-- Jreferee t/c 07:06, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- That is not the case. There are 6 cases to which Swatjester's comments apply, and most of them have not yet been closed. Most CFD discussions in the period 5 Nov - 20 Nov are unrelated to professional organisations. – Black Falcon (Talk) 16:55, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- See also: User_talk:Swatjester/archive13#CFD which has a more in-depth discussion regarding this. I think I'll WP:AGF and presume that this is just a case of someone used to AfD and is un-used to CFD discussions. - jc37 11:49, 25 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn - it is well-known to the closer and other UCFD regulars that a substantial group of editors have expressed concerns regarding the representativeness of UCFD "precedents" that have formed over the last few months, with too many of the same faces. XfDs should not be closed based on such highly contended precedents -- if there's merit to the precedent, then it should be discussed in more depth, not asserted against present consensus. Besides that, there isn't really any substantial history of professional organization cats being deleted. — xDanielx T/C\R 03:49, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I think this argument is fallacious, since the situation depends on the type of precedent we're discussing. There have been 6 discussions for professional organisation categories, and one should not generalise any principles from those few discussions to all user categories, or to UCFDs in general. – Black Falcon (Talk) 16:55, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- According to [1], there have been over 900 different contributors to UCFD - 925 (26 IP addresses). This argument has been tried before, and has been retracted on the face of evidence, looks like it's your turn... - jc37 11:49, 25 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn - faulty reasoning for close per precedent-related arguments above. Wikidemo (talk) 15:34, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- CommentThe UCfD discussion on Category:Wikipedians in the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers [2] with essentially the same issues is clearly headed for a keep (4 keep, 1 delete, plus the nom.). This clearly shows that the above-mentioned shift in consensus is real, so the discussion of this one should be reopened. 18:22, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
- I do not oppose reopening the discussion for this category, but I think it's erroneous to claim a "shift in consensus". It's more accurate to state that professional organisation user categories are considered to be more useful than others of their class, and that there never was clear consensus on them or their deletion. – Black Falcon (Talk) 18:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- It seems like you're saying that professional organizations (which both the ACM and IEEE are) are not affected by the precedent that was cited as the deletion rationale. I am not attempting to put words in your mouth, and I strongly doubt this is what you're actually saying, so could you clarify your position? Ben Hocking (talk|contribs) 18:56, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- No, you're mostly correct. I think that the precedent for deleting fraternal society user categories applies less to user categories for membership in professional organisations, which is why I've not recommended deletion of these categories except when there are other special circumstances. (Please note my deliberate use of "applies less to" in place of "are not affected by".) Whereas the former are simply MySpace-type hobby categories, the latter indirectly provide information about profession and, therefore, knowledge, skills, and access to sources. They do so rather inefficiently, when compared to actual profession categories (e.g. Category:Wikipedian psychologists), but it's a matter for individual consideration whether the particular circumstances – such as degree of redundancy, the nature of the organisation, the nature of membership in the organisation, and the potential for use of the category – justify retention or deletion. Precedent applies generally to all cases, but the degree to which it applies varies across different types of user categories. – Black Falcon (Talk) 19:22, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Make that 5 keeps and 1 delete, including the nom. Furthermore, the nominator's delete is conditional on "if that is to be the general policy with professional organizations". Ben Hocking (talk|contribs) 18:59, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn: deletion arguments were basically a combination of "no valid reason to keep", whatever that means, and, as Ben Hocking put it, "the deletionist equivalent of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS". Additionally, I think that closing as delete where comments are split 50-50 requires more of a rationale than "nomination is in good faith and is valid". David Mestel(Talk) 18:41, 21 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments - Let's take each comment on-by-one:
- Mine: I quoted a line from the article, hopfully showing what it was (a "society"), and then explained that such societies have been recently deleted.
- User:Scoutersig - per nom
- User:DGG - comments about "reversing the trend", and wishing for a policy change of some kind.
- User:Benhocking saying the nom was "the deletionist equivalent of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS" - which, as has been illustrated here, is not true. (Especially since that same argument could be used against anyone, regardless of keep or delete.)
- User:Swatjester - "not a valid deletion reason". Well, that isn't a "useful" comment either. At this point, who cares about the nomination? Explain why the category should be kept! So far in that discussion, not one person had done so.
- User:WaltCip - "No reason was given to keep." - I presume that this is in response to the comments above his. Because he's right, at that point, there were no reasons given to keep, just "meta-reasons" to not delete.
- So since all the others have been "given the weight that they were due", let's look at the nomination rationale: societies/fraternities have recently been deleted.
- Check out these several nominations, starting with this discussion and continuing down that page with Fraternal organisations, Category:Wikipedians in the Hospitality Club, Student organisations, Save the Plants; IQ org categories, Category:Wikipedians in Theta Chi, and Category:National Honor Society Wikipedians. Several of which refer to this previous discussion.
- Looks like precedent to me...
- And also since "overly broad" categories are also typically deleted, someone may wish to note this part of the article: Association_for_Computing_Machinery#Special_Interest_Groups.
- I think the main thing I'd like is for there to actually be discussion of the topic, rather than attempting to bypass discussion through variations on ad hominem and other such actions, well-meant though they may be. - jc37 12:26, 25 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse closure per my several comments above. - jc37 12:26, 25 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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