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May 14

Category:Brown Canadians

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) DannyS712 (talk) 01:59, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Category for a highly subjective racial neologism, which does not yet have a clear and objective definition of who belongs in it and who doesn't. The eponymous head article (which is also up for deletion at AFD) defines the term as meaning "South Asian" -- but that doesn't correspond to how this category is being used, as it also includes Armenian Canadians (but Armenians are Caucasian, and mostly look like it), and Latin American Canadians. And then, conversely, consider what's not being included here: Palestinian, Egyptian, Iranian and Iraqi Canadians are "brown", but Lebanese and Syrian and Jordanian and Saudi Canadians aren't? And get out into the real world, and it's even messier than that: there have also been attempts, with varying degrees of success, to include African and First Nations and East Asian Canadians under the "brown" umbrella as well, since they are also technically shades of brown. And if the term is this subjective as to what it even means, then it's not an appropriate basis for a category. Bearcat (talk) 22:39, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Catholic cathedrals in Kerala

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. MER-C 14:10, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: merge, redundant category layer with only two subcategories. No other Indian state has a category like this. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:38, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Place Clichy: The target Category:Cathedrals in Kerala will remain to preserve the state level. The only thing in this category is Eastern & Roman Catholic subcategories with no loose articles and they'll remain side-by-side after the upmerge just like now. We usually agree so I'm wondering if I'm just missing a navigational advantage?RevelationDirect (talk) 01:36, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@RevelationDirect: Actually, if there were other sibling categories for e.g. Oriental Orthodox and Anglican cathedrals, then it would make more sense to have this layer, because Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics are related. See the way Category: Churches in India by denomination is organized, as are many other church buildings and cathedrals categories. Also note that Christianity is both stronger and a lot more diverse in Kerala than anywhere else in India, because of the Saint Thomas Christians, a historic community numbering dozens of millions people but split between Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Catholic, Protestant and Nestorian branches, there is therefore content for such categories. In the current state of the category (i.e. as these siblings have not been created yet) I agree that this stands out a bit, and will change my vote to neutral. Place Clichy (talk) 06:46, 19 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Bleach games

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 May 21#Category:Bleach games

Category:KCRW

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus. bibliomaniac15 02:51, 2 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: Category for an individual radio station, consisting primarily of individual people who have been staff of that radio station -- which makes it a performer by performance violation. And three more articles here are straight relays of KCRW, which means they're not supposed to even have their own standalone articles at all -- per WP:NMEDIA transmitters which do not originate any of their own programming, but exist only to retransmit other services, get a redirect to the parent service and not a standalone article. And once the people are removed and the relays are redirected, all that will be left here is the eponym itself and four shows, which is not enough content to justify a special exemption from our longstanding consensus against individual radio station categories. Bearcat (talk) 19:14, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We have a longstanding consensus against categorizing for individual radio stations, so five articles is not enough to justify a special exemption from the established rule here. If there were 20 or 30 articles that needed KCRW-categorization, then there might be grounds to give KCRW a special waiver from the rule — but not just five, because literally hundreds of radio stations could show five related articles. Bearcat (talk) 16:52, 15 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We have a longstanding consensus that, like actors, on air talent frequently changes stations and we should not categorize by performance categories and the vast majority of radio stations happen to fail that test. I don't agree that radio cats should be held to a higher standard on WP:SMALLCAT though as we routinely retain categories with far less than 30 articles. RevelationDirect (talk) 18:23, 15 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@SportingFlyer: The disagreement here is actually with WP:SMALLCAT, not WP:PERFCAT. My cutoff is 5 articles defined by a topic while Bearcat is around 20 or 30 articles to keep a category. (There's no objective right or wrong answer here as the guideline is vague.) What number of articles are you looking for? RevelationDirect (talk) 01:42, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@RevelationDirect: I'm honestly not sure the actual number matters here since it seems to subjectively fail - once you remove all the people in the category per WP:PERFCAT, and you merge the transmitter relays, all you have left are shows produced by the station, of which I count four and two of those should probably be merged together (one's unsourced and closely related to another). So instead of KCRW you actually have Category:Shows produced by KCRW, and while that in theory could be expanded if they produce more notable shows, seems to me to subjectively trigger WP:SMALLCAT. SportingFlyer T·C 01:55, 17 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Where are you getting eight from? I count four above, plus possibly the station article. SportingFlyer T·C 04:23, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks. If Bearcat is correct, 2,3,4 shouldn't have articles at all based on WP:NMEDIA as transmitter relays. SportingFlyer T·C 07:57, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Since the disagreement here is over WP:SMALLCAT, knowing how many articles each of you are looking for would be helpful for guiding future noms. RevelationDirect (talk) 02:03, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:17th-century establishments in the United States

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. MER-C 14:10, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: The United States did not yet exist as a country in the 17th century. — 1857a (talk) 19:05, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fair point to bring up New France. I would suggest, alternatively, to keep the 17th-century US page as a disambiguation page, linking to both New France and to the 13 colonies. The 18th-century US category page may contain a "see also" link to New France. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:38, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Good spot. The above is a better solution. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:18, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, my nomination fails to consider all cases. I also prefer Marcocapelle's solution above. — 1857a (talk) 13:07, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The dab category is a possibility. However it does not solve all issues: the current scope covers not only the Thirteen Colonies and New France but also the New Netherlands, New Sweden, parts of colonial Spanish America and, of course, native American nations. Think that New York City was not established in any of the Thirteen Colonies. Seen that Georgia was founded in 1732 and the Carolinas split in 1729, the notion of Thirteen Colonies is just as anachronistic in the 17th century as that of United States. For these reasons, using the contemporary term of United States may be more practical and efficient than colonial polities in the name of avoiding anachronism. Place Clichy (talk) 14:14, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe something like a Category:17th-century establishments in continental North America as a container for categories for each of the polities? Thryduulf (talk) 14:37, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Renaming the 13 colonies category would require a separate discussion. This discussion is about the United States category. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:25, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:South Korean campaign medals

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. MER-C 14:11, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: upmerge per WP:SMALLCAT, only one article in this category. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:49, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Songs written by Fred again

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: rename. bibliomaniac15 18:54, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose renaming Category:Songs written by Fred again to Category:Song written by Fred Again
Nominator's rationale: The artist/musician in question's main article is named Fred Again and that's how he is known professionally - https://www.officialcharts.com/chart-news/who-is-fred-again-the-man-behind-some-huge-chart-hits-for-ed-sheeran-little-mix-and-george-ezra__28449/ → Lil-℧niquԐ1 - (Talk) - 13:03, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

*Support. AS per C2D. --Richhoncho (talk) 09:32, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Albums produced by FRED

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 June 1#Category:Albums produced by FRED

Category:Reggae albums by Puerto Rican artists

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 June 1#Category:Reggae albums by Puerto Rican artists

Cathedrals by city

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: merge. MER-C 14:11, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: upmerge per WP:SMALLCAT, these categories only contain two articles. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:18, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Minimum of 3 to 4 would be fair. Few cities will meet that threshold. If they do, fair enough. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:20, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Language of countries

Relisted, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2020 June 2#Language of countries

Category:Jewish merchants

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus. bibliomaniac15 19:06, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: This single member of Category:Merchants by ethnicity. I think smell of this off. Categorizing Jewish merchants feels like Shylock in the The Merchant of Venice. KasiaNL (talk) 03:54, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Debresser: how are Jewish merchants different than Gentile merchants other than one is Jewish the other is Gentile? Carlossuarez46 (talk) 22:31, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There really is a reason books have been written about this, and more books should be written. To give you one or two examples of distinguishing features that made them especially fit to be merchant: they had connections everywhere, as all Jews are wont help each other, and are actually commanded by their religion to do so. Then there is the matter of the common language, which allowed them to do business worldwide. I know from first hand of Jewish merchants who moved along the trans-Siberian railroad and founded Jewish communities in various towns, which is also a distinguishing feature, since most merchants don't necessarily found communities, and where they do it is notable, like in trade colonies. Debresser (talk) 23:12, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Ayatollahs and grand ayatollahs

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: no consensus. bibliomaniac15 18:56, 1 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's rationale: These categories have multiple issues:
  1. First of all, Ayatollah, Grand Ayatollah, Hujjat al-Islam, Hujjat al-Islam va al-Muslimin and Thiqat al-Islam are all honorific titles (Hovsepian-Bearce, Yvette (2015). The Political Ideology of Ayatollah Khamenei: Out of the Mouth of the Supreme Leader of Iran. Routledge. p. 18. ISBN 1317605829.) and addressing styles,(Nasr, Seyyed Vali Reza; Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Seyyed Hossein; Dabashi, Hamid. Expectation of the Millennium: Shi'ism in History. State University of New York Press. p. 266. ISBN 978-0887068447.) and they are really akin to categories such as Category:French Excellencies or Category:English The Right Honourables, not like Category:Italian popes.
  2. They are most probably not defining characteristics (while Category:Shia clerics is instead defining).
  3. There is no clear criteria for inclusion of one person in one of these categories. While one may argue that certain people are commonly known by the title Ayatollah in the Western world (like Gandhi, with the title Mahātmā), most of the people in these categories may fall into several categories. Followers of some clerics tend to promote them with senior titles, and their rivals tend to degrade them. These titles also bear political connotations and are sometimes controversial, inclusion of these categories in many articles can cause a WP:POV issue too (for example you can find Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani addressed with three titles: Ayatollah, Hujjat al-Islam va al-Muslimin and Hujjat al-Islam).
–Pahlevun (talk) 17:39, 27 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Some actually do claim this title, like this man. I think that article needs a lot of work. Pahlevun (talk) 21:05, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think you did not read my comments thoroughly, User:Inter&anthro. These categories are exactly equivalent to Category:Monsignors to be exact, not Category:Bishops. Would you please enlighten me, since you maintan that these titles are not "randomly given out", that this man is an Ayatollah or not? Pahlevun (talk) 20:43, 30 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No I did read your comment, thank you for you concern. While not as formalized as say becoming a bishop in Christianity there is a process to become Ayatollah. People can certainly claim the title, just like there some individuals who claim to be a president or a king, but if they are not recognized as such, then they do not belong in the category. See this article for the process. Inter&anthro (talk) 23:21, 30 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes there is a process, although less formal than say becoming a Bishop in Christianity or a Rabbi in Judaism, (see here for details). Ayatollah is by definition a Shiite position (to be specific in Twelver Shia Islam), not a Sunni one, so there is no need to further divide up by denomination. Inter&anthro (talk) 23:21, 30 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
While there is a process to become a cleric in Shia Islam, and a ceremony called ammame gozari (literally to put on a Turban) is being held at the beginning of their career, there is NO clear criteria for addressing that cleric. This is a matter of controversy. I am sorry that no proper source in English language is available to describe the problem, but I can provide you with this piece by the Persian section of RFE/RL, I hope google can help. Pahlevun (talk) 19:46, 1 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • While the link was probably meant to have the opposite effect, I am now leaning towards supporting the nomination. The process is really vague as there does not seem to be an established authority granting these titles. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:50, 1 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, bibliomaniac15 03:19, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am developing the article Ayatollah now with sources. Now, there are reliable sources that say this title is not used anywhere other than Iran, and I assume that is enough for deleting nationals of other countries in this category. @BrownHairedGirl: Would you please give me more time to develop the article? I can provide sources. Pahlevun (talk) 06:38, 16 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Take all the time you need, @Pahlevun. This CFD discussion won't remain open indefinitely, but don't let that deter you. I think it might be better to let this discussion get closed, and then you can come back at a later date with a clearer and better-sourced nomination supported by the improved head article. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:07, 16 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Caribbean Baseball Hall of Fame inductees

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. (non-admin closure) DannyS712 (talk) 01:59, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose Deleting/Listifying Category:Caribbean Baseball Hall of Fame inductees
Nominator's rationale: Per WP:NONDEFINING (WP:OCAWARD)
The Caribbean Baseball Hall of Fame is given out during the Caribbean Series, a post season series in Latin America. This award is usually recognizing accomplishments much later in their baseball careers however. Specifically, most of these awards are for players who started out in the Caribbean Series, were called into the Major Leagues in the US/Canada, retired, and then came back to receive this award as a sort of homecoming. Within the articles, while being from the Caribbean and playing in the majors are consistently in the intro, this award tends to get a passing reference and doesn't seem defining. For any reader interested in the topic, the contents of the category are already listified here in the main article. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:08, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
*RFC There is an open request for comments on proposed changes to WP:OCAWARD. Your input (pro/con/other) is always welcome here. -RD
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Finnish Hockey Hall of Fame inductees

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the discussion was: delete. In case anyone wants to make a list, the current contents are available on the talk page (non-admin closure) DannyS712 (talk) 02:01, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Propose Deleting/Listifying Category:Finnish Hockey Hall of Fame inductees
Nominator's rationale: Per WP:NONDEFINING (WP:OCAWARD)
The Finnish Hockey Hall of Fame is typically mentioned in these articles but they tend to be so short there's no distinction between the intro and the body. Seppo Ahokainen and Ilkka Mesikämmen are representative examples but feel free to click around on your own. Within the few articles that are longer, this award gets a passing reference and doesn't seem defining. All of the articles are already well categorized under Category:Finnish ice hockey players or related categories. For any reader interested in the topic, the contents of the category are already listified here in the main article. - RevelationDirect (talk) 00:08, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
*RFC There is an open request for comments on proposed changes to WP:OCAWARD. Your input (pro/con/other) is always welcome here. -RD
The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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