The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. keep comments aren't policy based Secret ^account 17:07, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeshivish Jews[edit]

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I know that there was no consensus last time, but I just don't see this article here. It's a Fork of Orthodox Judaism, and anything here can be placed within OJ. Yossiea ^(talk) 19:43, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, if OJ is not the right place for this article, 99% of it can be placed within Charedi Judaism. The rest of the article seems to be WP:OR, there does not seem to be enough out there for an entire article that can be properly placed within Charedi or Orthodox Judaism. Yossiea ^(talk) 19:45, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. -- Yossiea ^(talk) 19:46, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment "Last time" appears to have been at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yeshivish (culture) Jclemens (talk) 19:52, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Undecided It is very hard for an outsider (non-Jew) to tell if this is really a recognized group or a label put on some people. Even if the second case then it still might be notable, for instance Valley girl, etc. Borock (talk) 19:57, 30 November 2009 (UTC)(I didn't intend to equate Yeshnivish Jews with Valley girls since I can see that they are very different.)[reply]
Delete and Redirect Too dependant on local context. Are we discussing Non-Hasidic Haredi Jews? Are we differentiating between Hesder, Merkaz Harav, Itri, the Mir, and Ponovizh? What about Brisk vs. Brisker Kollel? What about YU? What about RIETS vs. regular YU program? What about people who were born Hasidic, went to a Litvishe Yeshiva, and now wear a short jacket and Brisker payos? What about a Yeke who learns in a predominantly Hasidic yeshive in Eretz Yisroel? Mention that this is a term often used to describe the non-Hasidic Haredi should be made in the Haredi Judaism and Orthodox Judaism articles, and this article should be redirected (preferably to Haredi Judaism, I think). Avi (talk) 20:07, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dude, you are way over my head. However even if this is just a label it still might be notable enough. I didn't vote keep because there are not yet sources that establish even that. Borock (talk) 20:15, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Correct, if someone is learning in YU's Kollel, they are Brisker, perhaps but are they yeshivish? In reading the article there is barely any distinction between yeshivish and charedi. I will of course wait for Izak to come with all the "official" Wiki policies. He's good with that. :)

For what it is worth, most people outside of YU o not believe YU is yeshivish, for example. Others believe that if you did not learn in Lakewood or possibly Bais hatalmud in the greater NY area, ou really aren't American Yeshivish either. That is my point, it is too much dependant on locality. -- Avi (talk) 20:31, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would call it a "weasel" word for lack of a better term. If you live out of town, no matter how yeshvish you think you are, you're not yeshivish according to the Brooklyn Ruling Class. Yossiea ^(talk) 20:43, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Yeshivish article is worth keeping. But it would seem to me that the Yeshivish Jews article probably should be deleted, redirected, salvaging and transplanting any material that can find a constructive home elsewhere. Bus stop (talk) 23:07, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. The article reads like OR from beginning to end, trying to create a subgroup of Judaism where one does not exist. The lead and many of the points are basically describing Haredi Jews who learn in yeshiva, but present it as some kind of offshoot of Judaism, right up there with Orthodox, Conservative and Reform. This is incorrect. There is also a lot of backpedaling (e.g. the lead informs us that most Yeshivish Jews have attended yeshiva — but some have not, and the dress code is black hat, white shirt, black jacket and slacks — but this doesn't apply in all cases either), and almost no references. The conclusion that elects as the "gurus" of Yeshivish Jews a grand total of two people (again, without references) is ludicrous. To Borock: The term Yeshivish is much more grounded and widely known as a style of speech among English-speaking men who learn in yeshivas. I agree with Yossiea that mention of the word "yeshivish" as a tag for religious men who attend yeshiva, and the use of "yeshivish" as a pejorative, may be in order on the Haredi Judaism page, but the rest of it has to go. Yoninah (talk) 20:45, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep 1700 Google hits, so it appears this is an accepted phrase. Article needs work. --JohnnyB256 (talk) 21:28, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Ridiculous OR article. Only 1700 ghits? another proof that this is just some stereotyping slang from the street. Very little to merge into the other serious article. --Shuki (talk) 21:35, 30 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Keep. It is astounding to me how people who obviously know very little about the subject can make blanket statements which are clearly incorrect. True, the article lacks sources, and needs work, but remember that Wikipedia is not a final draft. Also please note that the term "Yeshivish Jews" is not the most common term, but simply a Wikipedia convention to distinguish the article from Yeshivish. Most of the time, the term is used without the word "Jews" (e.g. "he is yeshivish", not "he is a yeshivish Jew"), as attested by the article's original name Yeshivish (culture) (though "culture" is admittedly not the right word), thus the lack of ghits. There is also an extreme lack of representation by Yeshivish Jews on Wikipedia, due to the general negative feelings toward the internet. But to say this is simply an insignificant fork of OJ is clearly misguided. Keyed In (talk) 07:21, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment See [1],[2], [3], [4], [5] for some mainstream media references to yeshivish. Also please note that in these instances, as in most Google hits, "yeshivish" is an adjective, describing a person, community, etc. and not the manner of speech that is the topic of the Yeshivish article. If there could be a way of renaming (and reworking) this article to something like Yeshivish (adjective) (this is just illustrative, not a name that I think will work under WP guidelines), I would support that, thus avoiding calling Yeshivish people a distinct category of "Jews." Keyed In (talk) 13:26, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As one of the aforementioned "Yeshivish Jews" I think I know quite a bit about my demographic. Regardless, by wikipedia standards it does not deserve its own article, but should be a redirect into Haredi Judaism where non-Hasidic Haredi Judaism is discussed. Let me ask you, Keyed In, in your eyes what differentiates "Yeshivish" from "non-Hasidic Haredi" (I cannot even say Litvish, as that would disenfranchise people from Yekeshe and Sephardi backgrounds who now identify with the Haredi/Yeshivish movement)? -- Avi (talk) 13:48, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mine is also a "yeshivish" family, but all that means is that my husband learns in a Litvishe yeshiva and follows the rulings of Litvishe gedolim. There are a lot of inaccuracies in the article as it tries to define this "culture", including that I am not called a "yeshivish" woman. As I noted in my vote earlier, the article is riddled with OR from beginning to end. I agree with Avi's last suggestion to pipe anything worth saving into Haredi Judaism. Yoninah (talk) 13:56, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Avi and Yoninah-firstly I would like to apologize if my comments offended anyone. I didn't mean to be uncivil and certainly didn't mean to attack anyone in particular. However, I do feel that there is enough here for an article. I would like to address a number of your points:

To answer Avi's question, there are a few differences (in my opinion) between non-Hasidic Hareidi and Yeshivish. First, NHH sounds (to me) like a very rigid classification of one's religious views, and no more, while Yeshivish is a much broader term-an adjective which can modify many more nouns. Secondly, many people who are Hareidi (and not Hasidic) may not qualify as yeshivish according to most, an example being a baal teshuva learning in a Hareidi yeshiva, who has adopted a Hareidi lifestyle. I know that I am sounding horribly judgmental, but I'm just trying to illustrate a point. Besides, just because something can be referred to by what it's not doesn't mean it shouldn't have its own article. Should we delete the matza article because it can be called non-leavened bread?
As to Yoninah's assertion that she would not be considered yeshivish according to the article, I would like to quote from the article, "In its common usage, yeshivish refers to the general characteristics of the yeshiva population, not to someone who necessarily studies in a yeshiva. Therefore, women, who generally don't study in yeshivas, can nevertheless be characterized as Yeshivish." Whether or not you find this label to add anything meaningful to a description of you as a person is irrelevant; since the description is widespread, it is notable. The article admittedly contains OR, and I would be happy to collaborate with someone on fixing it, but deletion is not the answer.
In response to Yoninah's first post, the backpedalling in the lead was added recently by a well-meaning editor, but I'm not sure that it was smart. It's true the article isn't written very well. But neither are thousands of WP articles. I agree that this is not meant to be an equal branch of Judaism. I would like to emphasize again that I don't think the proper name for this article is Yeshivish Jews, because that is too limiting (yeshivish can refer to much more than Jews) and also too much of a classification (making it sound like this is similar in importance to Conservative Judaism). After thinking about it and researching a bit more, I think that, since the usage of Yeshivish as an adjective is by far more predominant, we should one of the following:
- Move the Yeshivish article to Yeshivish (dialect), and the Yeshivish Jews article to Yeshivish, to describe all things Yeshivish, not a subcategory of Jews, OR
- Merge the Yeshivish article into the Manner of Speech section of the Yeshivish Jews article, and move the whole thing to Yeshivish.

But to delete the whole thing and not mention the use of Yeshivish as an adjective at all would be too drasatic. Keyed In (talk) 20:26, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keyed In: Thank you for your civil and patient explanation. I hear what you're saying, trying to give legitimacy to "Yeshivish" as an adjective, but I still don't think it deserves its own article. A section under Haredi Judaism explaining the adjective (and a "see also" under yeshiva) would be entirely appropriate. That's because the term "Yeshivish" only applies to people who are part of the Haredi, Litvishe yeshiva world, as I implied above with my personal categorization.

Regarding your new comments, why is a baal teshuva learning in a Hareidi yeshiva, who has adopted a Hareidi lifestyle, not considered "yeshivish"? That's certainly not true in Israel, and one of the problems already cited on the article page is that it's too localized. Perhaps the whole term is an American invention?

I would also like to clarify what I said above about the article's inaccuracies. According to the article, I am a "yeshivish woman". According to me and my peers, though, I'm Haredi, with a husband who learns in yeshiva. All the descriptions that the article uses regarding ideology and mode of dress are simply describing Haredim. Yoninah (talk) 22:00, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! It is always a pleasure to deal in a civil and friendly manner. I understand that you feel that the term "yeshivish" doesn't add anything meaningful to the description of someone as Haredi. I do agree that all yeshivish people are Haredi. But not all (non-hasidic) Haredi people are yeshivish. In my example, I would consider him Haredi because he has accepted upon himself to be as scrupulous in his observance as he is taught by his Haredi rebbeim. But it would be very unlikely that he would fit into the "yeshivish" mold without many years of integration.

I agree that the term yeshivish has a varied local connotation. But so does Haredi! I would venture a guess that you and your peers, who consider themselves Haredi but not yeshivish, are living in Israel. The term Haredi is preferred in Israel for a few reasons. First, it is a Hebrew word! Obviously they prefer the term in their native tongue. Not so in the US. More significantly, it is clear to me, after growing up in the US but studying in Israel for the last few years, that there are many more "shades of gray" in the US. Here in Israel, the boundaries are very defined; either you are Hareidi, Mizrahi or Hiloni. In the US, however, you can find (for example) a "baal habos" who is scrupulous about his observance like a Haredi, but who wears a blue shirt and has a (gasp!) non-kosher cell phone. According to the Haredi article, such a person would be lacking some of the major traits of a Haredi Jew; indeed, he would probably not even call himself that. Yeshivish can include such a person. The only reason I can't go edit the Haredi Judaism article to explain this is because insufficient documentation of this well-known fact exists, thus it would be labeled OR. This is just one way the Yeshivish (as an adjective) article can help.

Also, I get 38,000 google hits for "Yeshivish." As I said earlier, most of those refer to Yeshivish as a description, not the dialect dealt with in the Yeshivish article. Someone encountering such a widespread term who is unfamiliar with its usage must have the ability to get at least a bit of info from a corresponding WP article. True, it doesn't need to be as detailed as Haredi Judaism, and can include many references to that article, but it needs to exist for itself.

I strongly feel that my first suggestion above would be very helpful in turning this article away from describing a type of Jew, but instead to describe an extremely widespread descriptive term. Best, Keyed In (talk) 08:41, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keyed In: I hear you, I hear you. Now that you've brought up the "opposite" of Yeshivish, "Balabatish", we're not going to make a page for that, are we? In light of the fact that there really isn't a lot of documentation, just a word mentioned in an article (like some of the newspaper articles you cited above), wouldn't it be better to start out by describing the two adjectives, "Yeshivish" and "Balabatish", on the Haredi Judaism page, and eventually expand them onto their own pages when more references are available? And I totally agree with changing the page name Yeshivish to Yeshivish (dialect). Yoninah (talk) 12:17, 3 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that we both understand each other's opinions, and we will just have to agree to disagree.

About the name change, do you think I should ask for consensus on the Yeshivish talk page? Or just be bold?

It has been a pleasure to discuss this with you. Have a great Shabbos. Keyed In (talk) 09:58, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Be bold! Yoninah (talk) 11:21, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Black Kite 00:15, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Delete. It all one big chunk of OR. Start to finish. To be fair, I may agree with much of the OR and feel that it is true but that in no way removes the fact of it being a big chunk of OR. Joe407 (talk) 09:30, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.