The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Simon vs. the Homo Sapiens Agenda. This is a very difficult AFD discussion to parse. This redirect result is the only concrete proposal that has emerged after 3 relistings of this discussion. But if this article reappears in the future, I'd say that this AFD closure is definitely ambiguous. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:21, 2 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Simonverse[edit]

Simonverse (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

This seems like a bit of a strange one. I guess I would call it a notability issue. See, what I noticed is that the only sources in this article that support the inclusion of these series in this collected 'verse are from Twitter. I don't know if there are any special considerations for book series that have multiple notable entries, which this clearly does, but I'm not sure if that's enough to call this an established series. A few stray tweets from the authors isn't enough for notability in my experience. And the only sources I've seen that use the name "Simonverse" are only discussing Simon vs. the Homo Sapiens Agenda and its direct sequels and adaptations thereof, not The Hate U Give or anything else. I guess a redirect to Simon would be most appropriate. QuietHere (talk) 14:01, 3 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Literature, Film, and Television. QuietHere (talk) 14:01, 3 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Take a look through the Google News sources. 'Simonverse' appears to be used by multiple sources included in GNews that I am not familiar with. Unless all or all but one of them are non-RS (doubtful) this is probably OK. So, even if Twitter is being cited, real RS do appear to use the term, which would make it notable. Does that help? Jclemens (talk) 16:36, 3 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Well that's kinda what I was trying to touch on to begin with. It's more of a question of if Twitter primary sources alone would be enough for WP to list those items as part of the series. I'm not saying the term itself isn't being used by reliable sources, but that those sources aren't including the non-Simon books so the article is only going off of primaries, and I'm not sure if that's proper form. I guess calling it a notability issue is incorrect after all, and AfD probably isn't the right venue for this discussion, but there's still at least something that needs looked at here. QuietHere (talk) 16:48, 3 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Yeah, that is a bit of a different question. You've got 1) "Is the entire concept notable?" which I think is yes, and 2) "Is the article content reflecting what RS'es say about the concept?" and THAT is a WP:BURDEN question that doesn't need to be solved in AfD. Unfortunately, AfD is often the most effective way to get eyes on any question of article content. Jclemens (talk) 17:15, 3 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Okay, I've thought about this more and maybe this is worth keeping here, just not on notability grounds. Basically what I've realised is that without The Hate U Give, Dear Martin, On the Come Up, or Concrete Rose, this is just an article on the four books of Becky Albertalli's Creekwood series, and with a complete change in scope there's no point in keeping this page. At most it appears to better belong as a parenthetical AKA listed in a hypothetical Creekwood series article, with this page being redirected there. That article doesn't exist (the link redirects back to a section of the Simonverse page) but given the notability of at least the first two books it could probably be made. I know I probably can't exactly vote for a redirect to a nonexistent article, but at least this means this AfD makes sense after all. Good thing I waited before posting the withdrawal I had ready.

  To summarise, my official vote is still to redirect as I said before, but with the added footnote that if the Creekwood series article is ever made then the redirect should be moved there instead. QuietHere (talk) 18:06, 3 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  The series also crossover briefly in the books though, which is when about I made the article for this page. Both Starr Carter (from the Garden Heights series) and SJ (from the Dear Martin series) are mentioned directly in Love, Creekwood. The connection happens in the book as well, it's just the relationship is more clarified via twitter directly by the authors, which I understand Twitter not being necessarily the best source, but it's also straight from the authors themselves. I wish I could find more articles or knew how to reference the books themselves, but the connection being established in the books themselves to me warrants this as an official shared universe. If there's a way to include the book as a primary source for the connection I'll gladly add it, but I'm honestly still not used to how to make sources the best. Boneil0898 (talk) 00:33, 4 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Star Mississippi 14:38, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 04:30, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Redirect/Rename as WP:ATD. The sources don't really cover this universe but they do cover the series. These novels are related and a broad concept article about them would be valid. Archrogue (talk) 01:28, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  @Archrogue rename to what? Redirect to Simon vs. the Homo Sapiens Agenda as I said above or somewhere else? When you say "they do cover the series", which series are you referring to? QuietHere (talk) 03:03, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist. If you are going to propose a rename or redirect, please state what name you are advocating or what target this page should be redirected to.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:12, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reiterating at this time that my vote is to redirect to Simon vs. the Homo Sapiens Agenda. That's the most appropriate target currently available in my view. QuietHere (talk) 06:26, 25 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.