The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Redirect to Oldest people. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 23:19, 29 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Mitoyo Kawate[edit]

Mitoyo Kawate (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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No evidence of the type of sustained coverage that would meet the guidelines at WP:N: there was a little bit of attention in English and Japanese during her brief reign as World's Oldest Person, with all other sources I could find being trivial and failing to be sufficient for a stand-alone article. Due to the contentious history of editing surrounding World’s Oldest People topics, it behooves me to emphasize that there is no policy on Wikipedia claiming that the oldest living person in the world is automatically notable. People will still claim this anyways (because people always come to these discussions to vote keep without reading the nomination), but it is not true; there have been at least six cases where an article on the world’s oldest living person was deleted or redirected through discussion/consensus: [1][2] [3] [4] [5] [6]. This means that “oldest people” articles are judged on their individual merits and that the only relevant criteria are the general guidelines at WP:N, which requires non-trivial coverage in multiple, reliable third-party sources. I do not see sufficient evidence of that here in English or Japanese, although I admit my skills are lacking in the latter and will be happy to withdraw my nomination if a critical mass of material can be found by a user proficient in the language. Otherwise, any material of encyclopedic merit can be included on the many longevity-related lists on Wikipedia. Canadian Paul 18:10, 20 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

User:Canadian Paul, As I'm already pointed out on your talk page, your information are wrong. this AfD was not the AfD of "world’s oldest living person". Koto Okubo never the world’s oldest living person, only become the world’s oldest living woman and the second oldest living person in the world behind Jiroemon Kimura. Inception2010 (talk) 23:35, 27 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Merge, also I thought this article was deleted in the past by a JJB nomination. Also, being the last survivor of an atomic bomb relies on the same claim to notability as being the world's oldest person. This information, however, is worthy of being merged to the article about Japanese supercentenarians, but not for a standalone article. Longevitydude (talk) 19:12, 20 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Keep This person is the oldest survivor of the Atomic bombing of Hiroshima verified by Guinness World Records. Other 7 languages of Wikipedia has Mitoyo Kawate's article. clearly notable. She died over 10 years ago so sourcing will be more difficult, but not a reason to delete this page.--180.49.194.2 (talk) 04:55, 21 January 2017 (UTC) — 180.49.194.2 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]
  • Where in the guidelines does it say that being the oldest survivor of an atomic bomb makes you notable? As for the other wiki argument see WP:OTHERLANGS and lack of sourcing is a reason to delete this article. If sources exist establishing notability then the burden of proof is on you to provide them. CommanderLinx (talk) 06:34, 21 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete/merge to whatever list per WP:NOPAGE. There is one (1) (ONE) fact worth mentioning i.e. Hiroshima survival (though even that's not clear). Apparently she wasn't even in Hiroshima city at the time of the bombing. The rest of the article is the usual nonsense about "reigns" and "titles", like it's the World Wrestling Federation. EEng 09:59, 21 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Was oldest person in the world which is noteworthy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chimney148 (talk • contribs) 15:01, 22 January 2017 (UTC) — talk:Chimney148 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Oh look! Another SPA! EEng 17:04, 22 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Being the oldest person in the world out of 6.3 billion (population at the time of Mitoyo Kawate's death in 2003) is good enough and record holders of the oldest person in the world usually have an article (See Oldest people#Chronological list of the oldest known living person since 1955).

Nominator says that "there have been at least five cases where an article on the world’s oldest living person was deleted or redirected through discussion/consensus", However, there have been at least six cases where an article on the world’s oldest living person was Kept through discussion/consensus: [7][8][9][10][11][12] (note all the AfDs was nominated in 2015. Also, the nominator of AfD of [13] has been permanently blocked from editing Wikipedia.) Inception2010 (talk) 11:10, 21 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And what that proves is that being oldest is neither a reason to keep nor a reason to delete. It's irrelevant. You'll need to make your argument based on relevant criteria. EEng 15:22, 21 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Strong claim of notability as world's oldest person, backed up by the reliable and verifiable sources about the individual that exceed the notability standard. Alansohn (talk) 01:30, 22 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete Fails GNG and SIGCOV. Article consists largely of uncited trivia and longevity fanfluff. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 10:07, 22 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete or Redirect to appropriate list. Article tells us nothing outside a list of (except she looked for survivors after the automic blasts and died of pneumonia). Two routine obituaries and a GRG table does not make someone notable. Per the guidelines at the WP:WOP Wikiproject she belongs on a list. CommanderLinx (talk) 10:32, 22 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Yes, holding a title is worthy of a mention, but that's why we have lists. Not every title holder, however, stands out. That's why Jeanne Calment has an article very worthy of an encyclopedia while Anitica Butariu on the other hand would only be notable to avid fans of longevity and supercentenarians. Some conflict from years ago happened not because of difference in opinion but in the vilifying of people on the other side of deletion discussions. I think CP and Derby mean well and are doing their best to make wikipedia look professional and balanced concerning all wikipedia projects. It's not that they hate old people, they probably don't want it to look like wikipedia as a whole is partial to certain fields of interest over others. We should work together and come to mutual agreements. Longevitydude (talk) 23:22, 22 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• I was wondering what Canadian Paul's opinions are on the References attached to the article. One of them is from the Associated Press, another from CNN. Do they count as third party sources? I'll let the readers decide. Longevitydude (talk) 01:04, 23 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• [another source] I would like to point out. Longevitydude (talk) 02:14, 23 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Oldest living person in the world is notable. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:39, 24 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Gracious, we certainly have a lot of people here who don't understand how WP:NOTABILITY works. EEng 16:27, 24 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Has anyone read the articles I pointed out on the afd? If so, then I would appreciate ax explanation for why they do or do not establish notability, for future reference. Thank You. Longevitydude (talk) 19:44, 24 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I did look at the one posted by you just above here, and all it says is "Sorry your page was not found." And just now I looked at the link you posted just below here, and it's just the front page of the NZ Herald. EEng 20:40, 24 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for looking. [14] I'm not sure what the problem is. "Mitoyo Kawate, reputed to be the world's oldest person, died in Hiroshima yesterday at the age of 114, less than two weeks after taking over the title from another Japanese woman. Kawate survived her exposure to radiation from the 1945 atomic bombing of Hiroshima, worked on her farm until the age of 99 and spent her last 10 years at a nursing home. Guinness World Records listed Kawate as the world's oldest person whose date of birth can be fully authenticated after Kamato Hongo died of pneumonia at 116 in southern Japan on October 31." "10:54 PM Friday Nov 14, 2003" This was the text, I don't know why only the front page would show up. Longevitydude (talk) 21:16, 24 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

OK, that link works. Here, as almost always in these cases, I look to WP:NOPAGE. EEng 21:25, 24 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, thanks again for sharing your perspective. That Marge Simpson picture you posted on Amy Hulmes' AFD was clever by the way. Longevitydude (talk) 21:32, 24 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Gracious, we certainly have a lot of people here who don't understand how WP:NOTABILITY works." I think you'll find, if you bother to check, that I'm an extremely experienced editor who knows precisely how things work on Wikipedia and has contributed to countless AfD discussions. Your uncivil and patronising comments are unwanted and uncalled for. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:36, 25 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If, after the titanic decade+-long tussle over longevity here, you think that "Oldest person in X is notable" is a useful AfD comment, then there's a gap between your experience and your understanding. Sorry. EEng 16:39, 25 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Japan-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 15:40, 24 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Note A portion of the 4th source on her article, the latimes, that I feel should be emphasized concerning her status as an atomic bomb survivor.

" Makoto Tsunemoto, another Hiroshima city official, told Associated Press that Kawate was on her farm, about six miles from downtown, at the time of the Aug. 6, 1945, blast, but entered the city two days later to search for relatives and became exposed to radiation.

He said that officially qualified her as a survivor, entitling her to special health and pension benefits." The question is not if she survived an atomic bomb, but if that makes her notable. Longevitydude (talk) 21:42, 24 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Again, I don't think we need to decide whether she's notable. This one fact about her (Hiroshima) can be noted in a table entry. EEng 21:47, 24 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I thought the purpose of AFDs was to decide if a topic is notable. Longevitydude (talk) 22:36, 24 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Actually it's to decide if the article should be deleted or redirected. Almost always that comes down to deciding whether the topic is notable, because 99% of the time a notable topic gets its own article. But see WP:NOPAGE for the unusual case where a topic is notable but still doesn't get its own page, but rather is covered on some other page. I said unusual, but in the area of longevity it's very common, because so often very little is known about these oldsters, and thus they can be covered not only as well, but better, on a list instead a zillion tiny articles. That's why when I see a longevity AfD I always look first at the article to see if NOPAGE applies, and if it does then the answer is Merge whether the person is notable or not. EEng 23:00, 24 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep as per WP:Notability. I suppose saying whether Mrs Kawate as a world's oldest person titlist was notable according to Wikipedia guidelines is a matter of interpretation, as the way I read the guidelines, she does meet the criteria - even the ones regarding significant coverage and notability being longstanding (notice how she's been covered in books, and is still considered a WOP (and receives coverage because of that) fourteen years after her death, for instance). If other Wikipedeans wish to argue that Mrs Kawate does 'not' pass "the criteria", then I suggest that the criteria should be altered to provide less room/space for interpretation. Fiskje88 (talk) 16:37, 26 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's outrageous that you used an ethnic slur like that. She's not even Italian. EEng 05:03, 28 January 2017 (UTC) Paging David_in_DC.[reply]

To avoid any confusion, I would like to clarify that I used the term "WOP" to say "World's Oldest Person".Fiskje88 (talk) 21:01, 28 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.