The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. --Bongwarrior (talk) 00:28, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Michelle Leonard[edit]

Michelle Leonard (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

This one's making me think WP:HOAX. Says she was signed to EMI but their website has never heard of her. Says she is currently signed to Universal Music Publishing but their website has never heard of her. Claims she wrote forty songs between 2006 and 2007 that all charted. This sounds really bogus.... Redfarmer (talk) 02:49, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Nom's evidence shows that this is not at all a notable artist. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells•Otter chirps)} 03:05, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep per WP:HEY; article has been considerably rewritten and now illustrates notability quite clearly. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells•Otter chirps)} 18:42, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - Not a hoax, I actually found her MySpace site here [1] and not a bad voice either. However, MySpace and Blog to not make for notability. Let’s call her claims on the article page an exaggeration of success. Shoessss |  Chat  03:12, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Ahh .Wageless you have put us all to shame. Change to Keep. Shoessss |  Chat  00:59, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per nom. —Signed by KoЯnfan71 ^{My Talk} _{Sign Here!} 03:32, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. AllMusic confirms some of the collaborations, but just writing songs isn't notability, as heady as the experience may be. --Dhartung | Talk 07:21, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

*Delete not a hoax, but there's a mix between total lies and an article for a NN artist. Fails WP:MUSIC. Proclaims to have 40 songs charted by end of 2007. Well if she did, she would meet WP:N no problem, but Billboard brings up absolutely no artist page or chart positions Doc Strange (talk) 18:47, 27 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep per The Heymann Standard. it's been rewritten, and with the new citations, it meets WP:N now Doc Strange (talk) 00:51, 29 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. This article clearly has huge problems and I don't know how's best to tackle those problems. However, there is evidence that Michelle Leonard is a notable subject. I took one claim on the page, that she co-wrote a song entitled "Out of Tears", released by Hanna Pakarinen. That claim appears true (multiple Ghits shows Leonard as co-writer on the song). The song does not appear to have been released as a single, but the album it's on, Stronger, made #2 in Finland. Other songs on the page also appear to have been co-written by her and to have been on charting releases. Songwriting is a valid basis for notability if the songs written have been sufficiently successful. Simply searching Billboard isn't going to tell us much given that the material she's been writing has generally been recorded by other artists and has been charting in Europe, not the US. Bondegezou (talk) 11:34, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. OK, here's a better example. The page claims she co-wrote a song entitled "Don't Let It Get You Down" by Mike Leon Grosch. I've found confirmation of that and that the song made #2 in Switzerland and #6 in Austria.[2] Search a Swiss chart site rather than Billboard and you get plenty of evidence of a successful songwriting career.[3] Bondegezou (talk) 11:39, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment contd. I've done a fair amount of clean-up on this page. The more I look, the more I am surprised that previous editors thought this page was a hoax and were unable to verify the information contained. A few Wikipedia and Google searches demonstrate that Leonard has written multiple songs for multiple charting artists and is clearly notable under WP:MUSIC. Bondegezou (talk) 12:07, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Me again... OK, I've re-written the article from top to bottom. It could still do with more work, but it now has citations and links to other Wikipedia articles. There are now multiple examples of songs written or co-written by Leonard and being released on charting albums, and a few out as singles. This includes extensive work on an Estonian #1 album (Vanilla Ninja's Love is War, also top 20 in Germany); significant work on a Finnish #1 album (My Winter Storm from Tarja Turunen); and co-writing a Swiss #2 single (Mike Leon Grosch's "Don't Let It Get You Down", from the album Absolute that went #2 in Germany). She is signed to Universal Music Publishing. Nearly everything in the original article was true, as far as I can check. This is not an example of WP:HOAX or WP:BOLLOCKS, but simply of poor formatting and the non-Anglophone bias inherent in Wikipedia. This also demonstrates many of the problems with the AfD process. Bondegezou (talk) 16:56, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. The article supplies useful information about someone who is demonstrably a notable, successful European songwriter. Bondegezou has made a laudable first pass at necessary morphings.Wageless (talk) 17:20, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • What went wrong? Why was a page by someone who clearly is notable mistaken for a hoax or that of a non-notable musician? I think it can be useful to look at what's gone wrong in a case like this so that we can learn for the future. Obviously, the page originally had very poor formatting and no citations, so it was difficult to read. Redfarmer then checked and didn't find Leonard listed by Universal Music Publishing, but he checked the US site and she is listed by the German site. Likewise, Doc Strange checked Billboard, i.e. the US charts, when her material has charted in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Finland and Estonia. Moreover, as a songwriter, the material was released under the names of the recording artists and not hers. I would humbly suggest that editors remember to look beyond poor formatting and remember to look beyond US web sources before deciding how to argue in an AfD. Bondegezou (talk) 18:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, and "Assume Good Faith" isn't a bad notion either. Thanks Bondegezou for your sleuthage.Wageless (talk) 22:28, 28 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I don't think it's an Anglophone bias as much as it is a knee-jerk non-notable bias. Nothing personal intended at Redfarmer, but too many times I see articles shot down in flames within mere minutes of article creation, often times because the original author simply didn't know policies. -- RoninBK _{T C} 01:35, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. This article has drastically improved and now clearly demonstrates notability. Ursasapien (talk) 08:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.