The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete as a hoax. HighInBC ^{(Need help? Ask me)} 19:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Maeoniae[edit]

Maeoniae (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Tetrakorm (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Prodded by Tubezone with reason - "No references given that can be verified, probable hoax". Proposed for AfD by Wetman. This is a procedural nomination - my opinion is Neutral Tevildo 23:00, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also nominating (still procedural) Tetrakorm. Tevildo 23:10, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. No references apart from article creator's Angelfire page. Almost certainly a hoax. Note that the Tantalus article will need to be fixed after deletion. Tevildo 23:19, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A lot more than Tantalus will need to be fixed. This article appears to be the tip of an iceberg, introducing both references to these purported quad-amputee prostitutes and spurious claims that Tanatalus (and Heracles) was literally kings of Lydia (rather than generally mythological figures) into a host of articles about Lydia, Lydian locations, and Greek mythology. There is a substantial amount of damage control in the future of these topics. Serpent's Choice 00:41, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Only nine articles (not counting pages like this) link to Maeoniae. I am not responsible for claims about Tantalus, Hercules, etc. though I did tidy up some of the existing articles. TharkunColl 00:47, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've gone through and removed references to this topic. If sufficient legitimate documentation somehow appears to validate this purported practice, I'll revert the removal of content from the other articles myself. That said, there is still a ton of work to do in the Lydian articles, not the least of which is figuring out what to do with references to Tantalus-as-real-king and his purported temple city... Serpent's Choice 01:17, 26 December 2006 (UTC) Updated: I think I've purged most of the psuedohistory, occultism, and Atlantis theory from the Lydia articles, although List of Kings of Lydia seems beyond my power to repair, and I've doubtless missed some others. Serpent's Choice 05:46, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Two references were given from books whose existence could not be confirmed, the third exists but is about exogamy, which has little to do with the practice referred to in the article. This practice is weird enough that it's very hard to believe that the only good references would be in 100 year old books whose texts would be difficult to vefify. Tubezone 23:38, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. The substance of this article, which I created as part of my current tidying up of the articles on the Kingdom of Lydia, is based on an article entitled "The Maeoniae" by Charles Weyland that appeared in the December 1996 issue of Merel. In addition to those already discussed, the author provides, for example, the following reference:

"Lydia was the place of origin of the Maeoniae, a class of slave whose limbs were cut off upon being admitted to the temple as girls, and who were compelled to prostitute themselves thereafter. The amputations were effected in compliance with the principle of the golden ratio, which was thought to be most pleasing to the senses. The initiates of the sect became exceedingly skilled in the arts of their profession."

William Sandbach (1876), in his Preface to his translation of The Oera Linda Book.

I am fully aware of the obscure nature of the subject, but this in itself should be no reason to not present the information. TharkunColl 23:43, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Not wishing to be indelicate, but I find it hard - nay, impossible - to believe that this subject would have absolutely no references at all on the web apart from your page. Anything sexual generally has tens of thousands of pages devoted to it, and amputee porn is no exception; one would have thought that someone else would have noticed the Maeoniae before now. Tevildo 23:50, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Reply The Angelfire site is not mine, though I did use it as a reference in my original version of the article. The site states that all text and images on it are in the public domain. Also, should it be decided to keep my article, may I suggest turning Tetrakorm into a redirect page? TharkunColl 23:56, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. Hoax, the above comment notwithstanding. Sandbach is indeed the English translator of The Oera Linda Book, itself of at-best dubious veracity. However, I cannot find any indication that he discussed (or would have discussed) bizarre Greek sexuality in the preface to what is ostensibly a Frisian book about proto-European culture and the goddess Frya. Furthermore, I cannot find any indication that "The Maeoniae" by Charles Weyland exists, or, in fact, any evidence of a magazine or journal titled Merel that might have printed such an article. At this point, some clear evidence of valid documentation is going to be necessary to convince me otherwise. Serpent's Choice 23:58, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Merel Magazine is quite well known, and Sandbach was discussing the history of Lydia, and how its traditions did not tally with those in the book he was translating. TharkunColl 00:05, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I see now. Here's an apt description from a random website: "Ordo Anno Mundi A magical society offering full training in the Ophidian (Serpent-venerating) Traditional Craft, members receive their training by post. Group is located throughout the British Isles and produces a quarterly journal called Merel Magazine." I posit that this is not a reliable source for Lydian history (and that it is rather generous to consider it well known). Serpent's Choice 00:11, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

After deletion, this should redirect to Robert Southwell, as it was the title of one of the posthumous volumes of his poetry. However, there is no reason nor requirement under the GFDL to preserve the current material behind the redirect. Serpent's Choice 00:29, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Even if the Sandbach quote is genuine (which I reserve judgement on, although I know Serpent's Choice to be exceptionally diligent in such matters), the lack of any references in the Classical canon is also very suspicious. If Robert Graves doesn't mention them, then it's hard to believe that they have any origin outside Sandbach's imagination, at the absolute best, and are therefore non-notable as obscure Victorian pornography. Tevildo 00:13, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per Tubezone. Sounds like a hoax. Double or quad amputation would have been almost universally fatal in those days. Edison 00:09, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete The two references given by TharkunColl do not appear in the on-line catalog of the Library of Congress, an excellent double-checking tool. The Library of Congress online catalog search engine finds no results for "Taylor, James. Greek Religion 1902. The Library of Congress online catalog search engine finds no results for any publication by a "Gilbert Hurst". Googling "Maeoniae hierodule" reveals that the two words are not connected anywhere on the Internet save at this Wikipedia article. This User's contributions log and his Talkpage will provide some context.--Wetman 03:58, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just to be sure, I checked and the Taylor book is not in the British Library either. .DGG 07:07, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Those citations are taken from the article I mentioned. TharkunColl 07:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I gave this searching up references thing one last go, just to see if I'd need to revert my own edits removing this material from the rest of WP. It is my considered opinion that Ordo Anno Mundi made it up. There is an English translation of Oera Linda by Sandbach, and I guarantee it doesn't talk about kinky Lydian sex in its introduction, or in the introduction of either of its two legitimate reprints. I'm not surprised there, Ordo Anno Mundi has some funny ideas about what Oera Linda means. Charles Weyland has never written anything anywhere remotely reliable; I am faced with the staggering reality that, although there are other people with that name (including a character from the Alien movies), I cannot find a single Google reference to anyone who might actually be writing about Lydian history under that name. I can't even find a record of him writing for Merel, the Ordo Anno Mudi journal, because their website is no longer extant. I suppose I could crawl through Wayback, but why? As for the Taylor book, I am all but certain it does not exist. There are several books by that title; none are by a James Taylor, nor are they published in 1902. There are two Taylors who have written about the topic, neither so titled a book, neither published in 1902 (although Thomas translated Greek poetry in 1889). There was one major book about Greek religion and myth published in 1902; it was in German. The Gilbert book, Lydia, is even more ephemeral than its Taylor counterpart. This article is a hoax and whether it was by the creator of this article or by Ordo Anno Mundi, it still needs to go. And so, to paraphrase good Forrest Gump, that's all I have to say about the references for maeoniae. Serpent's Choice 07:59, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why have you drawn attention to my talk page in this manner? If you read it carefully you will see that I have been an active Wikipedia editor for well over a year, and have contributed a great deal of useful information. For example, I helped make List of English monarchs the excellent and detailed resource that it is today (though I can't claim all the credit!). I have indeed been involved in some heated discussions, and have made a point of never deleting any of them from my talk page. TharkunColl 06:58, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - hoax, it's inconceivable that there would be any demand for limbless prostitutes. A Ramachandran 18:11, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete - as hoax, albeit a fairly clever one; I don't think it "inconceivable" that such a thing may have come to pass, but no verifiable references have been presented. This looks to me like an imaginative manifestation of amputee fetishism cruft. -- Shunpiker 15:15, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment I suggest keeping in the 'funnies' bit as it's very clever. They would never have survived, unfortunately, unless gangrene and superating wounds are what do it for you, or you have to 'visit' a Maeoniae quickly before she expires. I suspect Charles Weyland is a confabulation of Charles_Godfrey_Leland and Wayland's_Smithy. This is all very clever though, I believe we have a genius in our midst:)Merkinsmum 23:42, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep but in the funnies section.Merkinsmum 00:00, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.