The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Withdrawn. An agreement that the medieval "commote "of Llannerch is a notable topic (although concern as to whether the existing text reflects such a topic) (non-admin closure) Britishfinance (talk) 19:42, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Llannerch[edit]

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There is a lack/absence of reliable sources do support the existence of this village/community. An internet search does not find anything except to show that the area claimed in the article as Llannerch exists as part of Trefnant Community - a civil parish/community within Denbighshire for example. All the sources in the article are to places in the area such as Llannerch Hall, the holiday park, the Tweedmill shopping outlet but there is nothing to substantiate the existence of Llannerch as a village. Even the described places such as the hall etc do not identify as being in Llanerch but have St Asaph as the post town within the LL postcode area. While a locality is not a formal part of a postal address, the absence of Llanerch from any such examples is unusual if the village does exist. Nthep (talk) 13:12, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Nthep (talk) 13:12, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Wales-related deletion discussions. Nthep (talk) 13:12, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nomination withdrawn on the basis that the medieval commote of Llannerch is a notable topic. Nthep (talk) 19:00, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some additonal established sources to confirm the status of village https://www.doogal.co.uk/ShowMap.php?postcode=LL17%200BD and https://checkmypostcode.uk/ll170bd confirm the status of village. If they say village, and are post codes. They then confirm it. Plus 70 people live around the park. Almost a hamlet population. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JoshuaIsTheFalco (talk • contribs) 13:41, 5 November 2019 (UTC) I noticed you have tagged my page for Llannerch for deletion. I have found one which proves the area is classed as a village. https://www.streetcheck.co.uk/postcode/ll170bb. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JoshuaIsTheFalco (talk • contribs) 13:43, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment all these sources appear to rely on the Office of National Statistics (ONS) definition of rural/urban [1] which assigns a status to output areas of which village is one. To quote from the user guide on the 2011 rural urban classification [2] "An Output Area assigned to the village class will not correspond to a village; the design of OAs is such that it will include part of a village (sometimes parts of more than one) and other dwellings away from it." - paragraph 2.7 All the maps in the links given above show the area in question is within the boundaries of Trefnant which is the village being referred to. They are not statements that Llanerch Park and Llanerch Farm (note none of these sources show a place name of simply Llanerch) are villages in their own right but are part of one - Trefnant.

The article should also note WP:GEOLAND. Census tracts which is essentially what the links provided by JoshuaIsTheFalco are referring to are not generally considered notable unless on a case-by-case basis they could be considered notable, given non-trivial coverage in multiple, independent reliable sources. Nthep (talk) 15:05, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

File:Denbighshire_UK_location_map.svg shows Llannerch on the map, plus there is a substantial amount of housing developments around the Hall and Park of Llannerch. Also look at the OS Maps. Grid Ref SJ 04782 72197 points to the area and also Llannerch Crossing and Park. This implies it is a village. That is on OS Maps https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/53.23823,-3.42814,17 if you look around. Plus the village in question does have a large shopping outlet unlike Trefnant and the village has a horse riding school named Llannerch Equestrian Centre. So That argues that the area has its own identity and is not named either Trefnant Park or Trefnant Hall. While I understand the village appears under Trefnant. It has its own distinction from the village with Llannerch Hall, Park and Shopping centre. I feel if this was changed to hamlet or a small village. Then it would be better because I argue with backing sources the Hall at Llannerch plus its park and old railway station give it. Its own identity as a community and plus with a population of 70 people. It has the same size as Bwlch-y-cibau which itself is a small village. Llannerch also has three seperate areas named after it.

Llannerch Hall,

Llannerch Hall

Saint Asaph

LL17 0BD

Llannerch Crossing/Park

Llannerch Park, St Asaph LL17 0BD

and

Llys Llannerch

Saint Asaph

LL17 0AZ

https://www.streetcheck.co.uk/search?s=llannerch+st+asph https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/shop/landranger-map-denbigh-colwyn-bay.html

I would be happy with scattered community or hamlet but I argue it is distinct enough to have a small form of recognition. Especially after it had a railway station Llannerch, the famous Llannerch Hall, Tweedmill Shopping Outlet and Llannerch Park.

JoshuaIsTheFalco (talk) 15:42, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's all original research. Find the sources that support to support this history. The existence of a hall and it's associated estate and the subsequent building of modern premises on the former estate that have retained the estate name do not imply the existence of a village by the same name. Neither can you say "I would be happy with scattered community or hamlet" when you're no presenting any sources that say that. The history or presentation of a settlement isn't what you'd like it to be but what the reliable sources it is. Nthep (talk) 16:58, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nthep don't you dare make out for what I want it to be. You just randomly selected my article for deletion as more evidence of your continued herding of me. I'm not bothered now delete it. It states plenty there but you dont accept it. I dont care I really dont. You've regularly targeted me and redrose64. I am no longer bothered. You wont accept a government source post code but would an article or piece of history possibly never happened. You and the admin do what you usually do and delete my own contributions but no one elses. I'm not caring anymore.

Plenty of sources but you wont accept them. Original research? Whatever. I'm outta here. Good day.

Signed not bothered user — Preceding unsigned comment added by JoshuaIsTheFalco (talk • contribs) 17:12, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, I think. I didn't dig too far into this. However, the Dictionary of National Biography gives a "Llanerch" in Denbighsire as a residence of the antiquary Robert Davies. On the other hand, the two-n spelling also seems to be legitimate; one manuscript of the Book of Llandaff was previously held in Llannerch in Denbighsire and so is known as the Llannerch Manuscript. Now, Welsh place names being what they are, there's a possibility that there is (or was) both a Llanerch and a Llannerch in Denbighsire... but the parsimonious explanation is that the same village where a prominent antiquary lived might host a library with historically important manuscripts. Our inclusion standards for named, populated places are (rightly, imo) very minimal; Wikipedia is a gazetteer. It seems likely that this village was more important in the mid-19th century than it is now; further information is likely in other contemporary sources. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 19:15, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen the DNB entry and that's a reference to Llannerch Hall, DNB like many gazetteers of the time don't bother adding the hall/estate bit in a lot of entries (see this entry for Whitehall Dod in a typical book of the period for example or this from an early edition of Burke's Commoners which uses both the single n and double n spellings and includes and omits estate in the same entry!). The distinction between the hall and its estate and whether its name implies there must have been a village of the same name first is what this discussion is about and there just isn't anything to say there was a village here first from which the estate took its name or that after the breakup of the estate a village called Llannerch has sprung up. Every mention I find in 18th and 19th century books about Llanerch is entirely about the owners of the estate. Nthep (talk) 20:03, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm. Well, there's definitely more history here than just the estate at Llannerch Hall, dating back in some form to the Middle Ages. Quoting from Rusu, R. (2011). "The evolution of administrative organization in Wales. Case study: The former Glyndŵr District". Studia Ubb Geographia. 61 (2): 151–158.: "In Perfeddwlad, an important cantref was, for instance, Dyffryn Clwyd, which covered the upper part of the Vale of Clwyd basin and the surrounding hills. Before the Edwardian conquest of Wales in 1282–1283, it was divided into the commotes of Dogfeiling (in the east), Llanerch (in the south) and Colion (in the west)" [italics in original]. And, indeed, our article on commote redlinks Cwmwd Llannerch as a division of Dyffryn Clwyd. I'm not sure what the best way to approach our coverage of the topic is, but I definitely don't think deletion is the right path forward here. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 20:34, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I found this "FAMILY, LAND AND INHERITANCE IN LATE MEDIEVAL WALES: A CASE STUDY OF LLANNERCH IN THE LORDSHIP OF DYFFRYN CLWYD" in the Welsh History Review 27/3 417–458 which may make a useful source for an article on Llannerch as a commote. Example it states that the commote covered 9,000 acres covering two parishes and 14 towns. On that basis I have no problem accepting Llannerch as a notable place but not with the current content or describing it as a village. Nthep (talk) 21:12, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Broadly agreed, although that's an editorial process rather than a deletion decision, no? Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 21:49, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The article claims that "Llannerch is a community and village located between Trefnant and St. Asaph in Denbighshire, North Wales". Now, in Wales, a community has a legal definition: there are around 40 defined communities within Denbighshire, but none are named Llannerch (St Asaph and Trefnant are both communities, however). At the very least, all suggestion that the place in question is a community should be removed. As for the claims above that Ordnance Survey maps "confirm the status of village" - OS maps do not do anything of the kind. They confirm the existence of features named Llannerch Hall, Llannerch Park and Pont Llannerch; but there is no feature named using the word "Llannerch" alone; and nor do any of these three features have any indication that they are a village, hamlet, or cluster of buildings. To take an example not so far away: St Asaph has been a city for a little over seven years, but the OS map does not use the word "city" anywhere, not even for ancient cities such as York. A railway station named Llannerch did exist (opened 1858, closed 1871) but that does not mean that a village of that name existed. Railway stations were given names by the railway companies, and in some cases are named after a local feature that cannot be considered to be either city, town, village or hamlet - for example, Bat & Ball railway station and Berney Arms railway station were both named after pubs. A few (such as Verney Junction railway station and Calvert railway station) were named after people, and not places. You cannot surmise the existence of a village from the fact of a railway station bearing that name. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 19:50, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, if only for historical purposes. It may no longer qualify as a community, or even as a village. But it is obviously a recognisable area/ location with very notable connections/ buildings. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:09, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I agree with all Redrose's comments. We already have an article on Llannerch Hall, which is quite sufficient and can include mentions of Llannerch Park, station etc. There is no village with a separate existence.---Ehrenkater (talk) 21:57, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

PS You will see from our Welsh Toponymy article that llanerch simply means "clearing"; and this authoritative source [3] says it can just mean an "empty space". There is no reason why an historical commote could not have been named after such an empty space. This tends to deny rather than confirm the historical existence of a village.---Ehrenkater (talk) 22:09, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Per long-established consensus, Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, a gazetteer and an almanac. I think this is a good example of content that wouldn't belong in a generalist encyclopaedia, but as it's a real place, there's a potential argument that it could be kept on Wikipedia to fulfil our alternative function as a gazetteer. There's obviously a need for sources, and the way I always like to reconcile this is to say that a map's a reliable source. Unfortunately, I've been unable to locate an entry for "Llanerch" (as opposed to Llanerch Hall or Llanerch Park) on a map -- and the other sources seem quite inadequate to me -- so I can't see how we can keep this.—S Marshall T/C 22:29, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

See above, we've now established that Llannerch existed as a commote in medieval Wales and that can be sourced. As an administrative area in a country that makes it notable and I will happily withdraw this nomination. The article can be re-writen even if it starts reduced to a one-line stub "Llannerch was a commote in the cantref of Dyffryn Clwyd". Nthep (talk) 22:43, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, that was interesting. I agree that we can cover Llannerch as a historical commote. I do not see how any of the content we currently have would be useful in that article, so we might as well delete all the existing material so you can start again with a clean slate.—S Marshall T/C 22:51, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Can I request the deletion be removed if its allowed to stay, please? On the article as well. Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by JoshuaIsTheFalco (talk • contribs) 13:02, 10 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If it doesn't merit an article it could be merged into Trefnant, alternatively it could be redirected to its railway station. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:30, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree Crouch, Swale. Merge it either with railway station article or maybe like I did with Pipehill. Make it a hamlet article. It's got enough evidence to be given a stance at least. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JoshuaIsTheFalco (talk • contribs) 18:41, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Crouch Swale. Could you remove the deletion on the article as its being allowed to stay. Thank you - JoshuaistheFalco — Preceding unsigned comment added by JoshuaIsTheFalco (talk • contribs) 15:38, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.