The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Secret ^account 16:54, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Giapo[edit]

Giapo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)

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A disputed speedy about a New Zealand gelato shop; two previous versions were speedied as WP:SPAM. This seems to me to be on the border between notability and advertising; most of the references seem to me to be questionable in that they don't exercise sufficient editorial control. An exception is one about the organization's charitable activities, which seems to have nothing to do with the restaurant per se. A number of assertions have been made which purport to be about notability but may be based on an insufficient understanding of that term's meaning in the Wikipedian context. Rather than continue this cycle of speedy deletion, I thought it best to bring the article to the community for discussion and determination. Accounting4Taste:talk 19:21, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like it's going to be speedied. I think some salt might be useful. I don't see any evidence or indication of notability for gelato shop established in 2009. ChildofMidnig ht (talk) 01:35, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Giapo is notable for making the biggest cone on earth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.98.143.76 (talk) 08:47, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can understand that because of the relative infancy of the store that it may be considered un-notable, however this is simply not the case. As is mentioned in the article, the store has several significant achievements and notable aspects, like it's recognition as a top auckland restaurant. The sources include reputable magazines, and an independent news source (Scoop New Zealand). These both show the significance of the topic. In terms of other sources, I am trying to obtain other print sources to add to the article. Hence I feel that this article should be edited, helped, and improved, rather than 'speedied'. Lukejtharries (talk) 09:10, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I do not see a reference from scoop in the article. We would need to see any coverage on scoop, as they undertake relatively little independent journalism, with a large part of their output being reproduction of press releases. (But they are a good archive for non-controversial information which doesn't need independent sourcing). dramatic (talk) 22:20, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I share the view of Luke Harries. If the question is about being notable, how about the 1900 fans on facebook? If it is about the substance of what giapo is doing, the supergiapo ( biggest cone baked only available at giapo), the charity with starship foundation, the social media relevance, the all organic ingredients and the weird flavours might help u answer your doubt. if it is about the content of the article here in the wiki: Giapo in New Zealand means something for all the people in the social media, the youtubers, the facebookers and twitterers. Giapo is a hub that everybody who lives in Auckland central knows. it is a 24/7 live tweet up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gpgrazioli (talk • contribs) 11:13, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It should be presumed that User Gpgrazoli has a conflict of interest given that their username matches the store founder's name. dramatic (talk) 22:20, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

FYI: Regarding "Scoop" coverage the sole article I find (here) is a company press release. --Mcorazao (talk) 20:19, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete I see no coverage outside of Auckland, and precious little there, at least as references. For this company to meet WP:CORP it should at least have broad notability in New Zealand at large, with coverage in other media in other NZ cities. Coverage in social media is interesting, but so far I see nothing beyond up-to-date marketing practice, of which an article on Wikipedia would be a part. Acroterion _(talk) 17:59, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But NZ is a country with 4 million people. Auckland is its main city with 1.4 million people residents and 2 million tourists a year, covering Auckland is almost covering NZ. I do not think it is about Marketing. The practice of wanting Giapo on Wikipedia is more for justice for all the people that know giapo or want to know more about giapo. I call it pure and simple information because everything Luke Harries says in his article is verifiable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gpgrazioli (talk • contribs) 20:33, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - Spam for a business which comes nowhere near meeting the notability requirements for businesses. Their marketing is obviously good, but the claims to notability are trivial and unverifiable. (If there's a relaible independent source for the size of every waffle cone produced in the world then I'll eat my waffle-iron). dramatic (talk) 22:20, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. The article is undergoing a rewrite, (while unofficially with the help from The Guild of Copy Editors). The impact this shop has on New Zealand is quite extensive with the fact Giapo has the largest commercially available ice cream cone and all it's outside work including the 'Eat Safe' campaign and charitable activities (Starship Children's Hospital initiative) are significant as Giapo's mission statement is 'to make a child smile'. All these points are enough to warrant this down to a notability tag; at least. PoinDexta1 | Talk to Me

22:27, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

A new Article just arrived today from the main business paper in New Zealand. The National Business Review in this article is mentioning Giapo with its fake break in to spread the word about the charity. http://www.nbr.co.nz/search/apachesolr_search/giapo ≈≈≈≈

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of New Zealand-related deletion discussions. -gadfium 01:48, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - It's an ad. I've lived in Auckland all my life and never heard of it so it can hardly be iconic. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 04:27, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete Vanity press doesn't count as a reference. Stuartyeates (talk) 06:24, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete per WP:SPAM and WP:CORP. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 07:44, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - Per everybody else above. I've been to this place, medium size ice-cream shop similar to other places (like Cold Stone Creamery who have 1400 locations) and with 3-4 people behind the counter in a central Auckland location. About as big as a dozen other places like McDs, Starbucks, BurgerFuel, BurgerKing, Wendy's etc within 2 minutes walk. - SimonLyall (talk) 10:57, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• This needs to be simply taken down to a notability tag, because the article as contains an assertion of notability which should merit it more time to establish whether it should be in Wikipedia. Also this should be categorised, which should hopefully bring it to the attention of Wikipedians interested in that area. PoinDexta1 | Talk to Me 13:03, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment This IS the process by which we allow the article more time to establish whether it should be in Wikipedia, and it seems to be getting the full seven days to which it's entitled. Although I didn't see a specific assertion of notability at the time I brought it to AfD, I felt that there was a generalized sense of notability being asserted sufficient to make an AfD the most useful way to move forward. Otherwise I would have simply used the speedy deletion process, much like the last two times an article on this topic was deleted. Accounting4Taste:talk 18:45, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Giapo is a notable shop in Central Auckland, Giapo is known all throughout New Zealand due to their large social media presence and also their press coverage, including National Business Review a newspaper and online website that many notable business people read on a daily basis and also 3 News, One of New Zealand's largest news and current affair shows, that reaches almost 100% of New Zealand! Another great success Giapo has is the largest cone on earth the 'SuperGiapo' I greatly believe that this is notable and is just one of the fantastic achievements of this amazing store called Giapo! Keep up the great work Lukejtharries on improving this very notable article! --Jakingsbeer (talk) 23:16, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hyperbole will get you nowhere. TV3 news rates about 30% of people who are actually watching Television at 6pm. dramatic (talk) 09:26, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. I have added in the National Business Review and Scoop references, as well as toned down some of the self-promotional language to maintain a neutral point of view. Full disclosure: I do consulting work for Giapo, as well as being a Wikipedian committed to making Wikipedia better. I can disclose that as well as the sources linked to in the article, Giapo will also be covered on TV3 news sometime during summer. A reporter from TV3 was there yesterday, specifically focusing on how Giapo uses social media to build a solid community in less than a year. That same community shows fanatical loyalty; as SimonLyall noted on Twitter, the menumania page for Giapo has 120-odd positive comments. Simon Young | Auckland, New Zealand (talk) 23:33, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note - I said 120 percent positive comments, not 120 comments. The actual number of reviews is around 12 and they looked so over-the-top positive and marketing speak that I suspected that many were written by staff members ( it now appears to not be the case ) - SimonLyall (talk) 02:18, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. The company seems to use the internet rather heavily as a marketing tool. This will make the shop appear to be notable when using online sources. If we add this shop it would be only fair to include the thousands of other small businesses in NZ as WP articles. There really needs to be a cutoff point for inclusion of topics i.e. all of the businesses that have a WP article that are least notable should all be notable to the same degree. (does that make sense??) -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 05:43, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The only National Review article is a story about purported fraud on the part of Giapo and the only Scoop article is a company press release. --Mcorazao (talk) 20:25, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Re Comment: - Yes I agree that Giapo uses the internet heavily as a marketing tool, but that does not mean that they 'just appear notable'. Giapo has what is known as the largest cone on earth! Surely this is a greatly notable achievement! No?? --Jakingsbeer (talk) 08:56, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No. IMO, the "largest cone" claim amounts to trivia. In fact it is trivial to make one larger than theirs - but its simply not worth the effort. dramatic (talk) 09:26, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - Reasons have been stated by those above who voted for the delete. Refer to Talk:Giapo#Reasons_to_Delete_Giapo_Page where I list a few errors in the Giapo page and reasons behind my vote. Linnah (talk) 18:24, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

you should put some of that material in this discussion.dramatic (talk) 09:48, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - Certainly there are less notable articles that this floating around WP but IMHO most of those should be removed. Ideally notability should be established by some solid secondary sources. A short mention in one magazine does not qualify. And from what's been offered there is no good reason to think that will change. Whether it has the largest cone or the largest ball of yarn is not really relevant. --Mcorazao (talk) 23:25, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: - Giapo has been mentioned in some of New Zealand's largest publications and is shortly going to be mentioned on one of Nz's largest news bulletins, 3 News. This is a fact as they recored the segment a few days ago. In fact, with a few quick search's I had found multiple secondary sources, also the Giapo article meets wikipedia notability guidelines as there HAS been coverage in reliable secondary sources and there is MORE to come. The creator of this article is Independent of the subject. I strongly believe that this article should be kept in Wikipedia. --Jakingsbeer (talk) 04:54, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reviews do not count as significant coverage, because every restaurant should be reviewed in time. Besides, the "review" uses several phrases identical to Giapo publicity material, making its neutrality doubtful. (They must have talked to the management rather than going in anonymously, and may well have been invited to do the article in the first place). The fact that TV3 is doing an article on a business's use of social media just highlights their newsroom's ignorance of where things are at. Social media marketing is now a commodity and is at least a year past the point of being a novelty. (I even have a business which brokers it!). This leaves us with zero significant coverage in reliable sources. dramatic (talk) 09:08, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth if there is significant coverage by secondary sources then this needs to be shown in the article through references. Currently there are 3 references in the article but one is a company-published Youtube video and another is just a listing with user ratings provided. So really there is just a single reference that implies any notability (and it really doesn't imply enough to merit an article). I did a quick Google search (admittedly not a thorough one) and, other than the company's marketing stuff and various self-published stuff, I really don't see the business showing up on the radar. Even if a major news station is planning a story on the place that doesn't by itself mean much (I was on the news once and I'm not notable enough to have an WP article ;-) ). Is the news story saying anything about the place that makes it notable (note: unique or good is not the same thing as notable)? --Mcorazao (talk) 20:50, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I will add the sources in the refs, However one can not be opened without payment as this is due to it being soley for business owners that subscribe to the newspaper and online version, however I do have many to add. --Jakingsbeer (talk) 08:08, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The NBR reference has previously been removed, since the section it supported (charitable work) was eliminated when someone tried to balance the article. A large proportion of New Zealand businesses support one or more charities, which devalues charity work on the notability stakes.dramatic (talk) 09:48, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the newspaper for "business owners", I would be careful. I am presuming that you are talking about some sort of trade magazine which would not be considered objective. --Mcorazao (talk) 20:15, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete - Sources (magazine blurb and local rating website) do not show notability. Evil saltine (talk) 08:37, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - There is more than those, just not listed as refs, I will add them :) --Jakingsbeer (talk) 08:08, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete -- what chutzpah to be so publicity hungry and then cite the ensuing minor internet publicity as evidence of serious notability. Also, offering New Zealand's largest ice cream cone is a gimmick; ditto the ball of twine comment above. --Glenfarclas (talk) 23:04, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.