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Temporary, I hope?
I'm a big proponent of stepping away from the project when you need some time to focus on other things or cool off or just because, but it'd be great to see you back here when you are ready! ~ Amory(u • t • c)09:14, 31 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry to see the semi-retired headline, but I hope it's just for a while. I gather from a quick scan of the page that it was a combination of a return to routine work and a badly-handled AfD (so sad when that happens). And I was just back from a trip myself and thinking it was time to recognise some of the amazing work of the last year. Hard to credit that from my first sighting of your sig editing some neglected corners of Irish article space its been only 367 days, or so :-) Anyway, as I see you are still about, I proceed with:
The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
for committed editing, and as needed, re-editing, of key articles on Irish taxation and economics - the top five edited >7500 times, and so much more useful and readable after. Amazing!
and
The Business and Economics Barnstar
for contributions to WP Ireland articles and elsewhere, with diligence and professionalism
And further, reading a little more, commiserations on being targeted by people in other lines of work who do not understand the rights and wrongs of Wikipedia. IDA Ireland does great work, but that does not excuse the behaviours mentioned, and no State body should be defending what most people would probably clearly, and instinctively, understand to be questionable practices - of no benefit to Ireland, as it happens (tax takes like 0.0004% do not count). Not that Ireland is the worst, at all - there are other EU members doing "very special" deals, for example - but anyway, Wikipedia's task is to elucidate, not cover or talk over. Keep up the good work, when the mood takes (or for fresher territory, do more of the great mountain / climbing editing.) SeoR (talk) 12:39, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi SeoR ! Really appreciate the barnstars and your kind sentiments. What started out as wanting to fix a few Irish-finance related articles, turned into a full-on addiction. I did try to fix many Irish tax-related articles by replacing all the references with high-quality academic references (or notable other publications), and after about 6 months I think I was writing proper WP standard articles (I even went back and re-wrote many earlier attempts). However, it appears that these newspaper articles have revived the "Irish tax trolls", and loads of Irish tax-related articles have been vandalized/PROD'ed today (e.g. Double Irish arrangement, EU illegal State aid case against Apple in Ireland, and Ireland as a tax haven. It is a losing battle I'm afraid. Britishfinance (talk) 15:59, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome, and I am very appreciative of the quality of editing and referencing made. I think I already bumped into one bit of odd "attack" editing (I see plenty of misbehavior in Pending Changes work, but it's not so common on Irish articles these days), and will check for more.SeoR (talk) 22:07, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I see the most egregious behavior has been tackled by others - good. And I did moderate the lede of the "IE as tax haven" article, as this is an allegation (as noted in the article, Ireland has never been so accused by the EU or OECD) and is a corporate-focused thing. But it's not like it's news that some major sources find Ireland's tax arrangements of concern, it has been discussed in parliaments, EU assemblies and more, and much in literature, and the Double Irish and more have been known to tax practitioners for a very long time, so I do not understand the personal attacks on yourself. I will visit ANI now too.SeoR (talk) 22:17, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Glad to see that the ANI discussion is over, and that you're still editing away, when time allows. And I was optimistic that the community would not just fold and allow a "losing battle" - I'm here a good while, and I think many editors take pride in our objectivity, and in not giving in to trolls, vandals and gremlins. So far, at least, I think the line has held, and standards have been upheld, and even IP edits were not one-way. Although I remain very unhappy about those odd edits a 237 address made to the Varadkar article, that smelled really "off." I am a little puzzled at the disappearance of Headless Nick, but probably some real life matter, and I do hope they return, and we can all work on the questions raised, and answered. See you around, I hope, not just in this topic area, but also in Hills, Mountains and Climbing - hard to credit but when doing a little tidying in Sport lately, I discovered that the Mountaineering Council does not even have an article, and whatever about rock / lead climbing, the Irish bouldering scene is pretty much missing in action too.SeoR (talk) 21:15, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
SeoR. Thanks for that, and I very much appreciated your input at ANI; even made the Washington Post today. The section in the Varadakar article was not appropriate for his BLP. He has a very incidental role in this area apart from re-iterating State positions. I will keep an eye on other articles linking to it. I had a notion of doing the "Ring of Kerry" as a better article (with all the individual spots upgraded); ironically, I do think that this is an area that an Irish State body should be supporting?? I think geographic-type articles are perfect for WP as they are more "stable" (e.g. need less updating once written). However, RL is getting busier now, so I will have to come back to it. Many thanks again! Britishfinance (talk) 21:42, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I am sad that Ireland as a country is embroiled in these matters, but at least it is debated; I'm not sure how much this happens in longer-playing "tax efficient" locations - but I really regret that it touched Wikipedia, and I am very glad that we as a community are now warned. I agree re Varadkar, and others, they inherited a situation, in this and many other areas, and certainly it was never part of their personal spiel. Geo articles are both more stable, and less tricky, so that could be a good area, indeed. And in the pure climbing space, without replacing proper manuals and route photos with markup, a few more quality articles like Alladie and Dalkey Quarry would help all concerned. So, when RL allows - and I myself am just back from 3+ days offline, as has happened several times this year - looking forward to seeing you around.SeoR (talk) 09:55, 29 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
SeoR. I have overhauled (almost finished) most of the big tax haventax inversionoffshore financial centre articles on WP without a single disruptive edit from a non-Irish IP (and some good compliments). It is puzzling as to why some Irish editors have this attitude. It was interesting that just a few days ago, another academic study showed that Irish media are not helping Irish people understand these issues [1]. I don't think that Irish people realise there are US policy think tanks that have been producing 400-page dissections of Ireland's tax code for decades (e.g. there is nothing that Washington/OECD does not know about it). However, since Trump and the TCJA (and now the new OECD BEPS 2.0), things have started to fundamentally change in the way the US views Ireland in a way not seen for decades (if ever). Hopefully, the articles will keep people better informed.
Probably should indent, but as a closing comment, I'll go out on a limb. First, sorry for not replying sooner; I was off for part of early May, and was on limited time and catching up after, etc. Yes, I have seen those articles, and other work on places in Kerry. I must try to add to some. The Reeks article is especially interesting as I have McGillycuddy cousins still farming in a remote valley deep inside there, and context on the family links (many people in Irish families have quite strong feelings about claimed "head of family" lines, as these are usually based on external models of descent, not the old Gaelic rules). I agree that a series and category around the Ring of Kerry would be a plus. I understand about the climbing walls, a very limited base in Ireland. That said, a good article on Climbing (sport) in Ireland, and maybe also one on Bouldering, would be good. But such articles are not so easy to write well, and could be a challenge on sourcing, though the MCI / MI journal would be one solid base. Very glad to see you're still editing away.SeoR (talk) 10:36, 13 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi - I see the ANI thread has been closed. I'm sorry that turned into such a long, drawn-out affair, and for any stress it put you under. I hope you can see why I thought it was necessary to raise the case, but regardless I'm sorry it went on for as long as it did, with all the repeated aspersions. I hope it hasn't put you off editing if you get time with your new real life stuff, and that there are no hard feelings? Cheers GirthSummit (blether)18:01, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Girth Summit. It was a pretty dispiriting process. A random new (unilkely) editor comes to WP and starts deleting large sections of articles and making wild allegations; and continues to do it (with other IP-socks), and doesn't get blocked. An admin makes further allegations, all of which are fully responded to, and then disappears. I don't have any hard feelings to you, and your ANI was not done out of any bias against me; however, it would have been appreciated if you had spoken to me first about your concerns (you would have seen the matter being discussed on my talk page above). There is an article in the Washington Post today that summarises the whole affair well Ireland is a tax haven. Britishfinance (talk) 19:44, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think that's probably fair comment - I'll have to think about how I could have dealt with this better. Perhaps I should have spoken to you first (or, as you say, at least read through your talk page first) - not knowing how to judge which 'side' was right, I went straight to a community board rather than engaging with you directly, but that might not have been the best move. I'm glad it's eventually resolved though, and without wanting to sound like a patronising git, thanks for all the work you've put into those articles. GirthSummit (blether)22:27, 25 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
XTools Admin Stats, a tool to list admins by administrative actions, has been revamped to support more types of log entries such as AbuseFilter changes. Two additional tools have been integrated into it as well: Steward Stats and Patroller Stats.
Arbitration
In response to the continuing compromise of administrator accounts, the Arbitration Committee passed a motion amending the procedures for return of permissions (diff). In such cases, the committee will review all available information to determine whether the administrator followed "appropriate personal security practices" before restoring permissions; administrators found failing to have adequately done so will not be resysopped automatically. All current administrators have been notified of this change.
Following a formal ratification process, the arbitration policy has been amended (diff). Specifically, the two-thirds majority required to remove or suspend an arbitrator now excludes (1) the arbitrator facing suspension or removal, and (2) any inactive arbitrator who does not respond within 30 days to attempts to solicit their feedback on the resolution through all known methods of communication.
The CSD feature of Twinkle now allows admins to notify page creators of deletion if the page had not been tagged. The default behavior matches that of tagging notifications, and replaces the ability to open the user talk page upon deletion. You can customize which criteria receive notifications in your Twinkle preferences: look for Notify page creator when deleting under these criteria.
Twinkle's d-batch (batch delete) feature now supports deleting subpages (and related redirects and talk pages) of each page. The pages will be listed first but use with caution! The und-batch (batch undelete) option can now also restore talk pages.
Miscellaneous
The previously discussed unblocking of IP addresses indefinitely-blocked before 2009 was approved and has taken place.
Britishfinance;
I hope you saw the last Signpost "From the editors". In particular:
To mark the fifth anniversary of the terms of use change that banned undeclared paid editing, the next issue of The Signpost will focus on how paid editing affects our encyclopedia. We want to hear from editors, administrators, arbitrators, bureaucrats, WMF employees and board members. We want to hear from all sides of the issue, including those who oppose paid editing, those who support it, and paid editors – both declared and undeclared. And most of all we want to hear from ordinary Wikipedia editors.
I wasn't thinking exactly of you when I wrote this, but I think your story in a few short paragraphs could be very instructive. There may not be any room anymore for full op-eds (I'll see when I actually get the submissions), but I'm thinking of putting multiple "short stories" and quotes in a "From the community" article. Copy deadline for this would be June 25. Any help appreciated. Smallbones(smalltalk)15:13, 9 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Smallbones: I would be delighted to return the help and do this for you. Just to understand, am I to write something regarding my experience of meeting paid editors, or being challenged as being a paid editor, or both? Am I to give a view on whether undeclared paid editing should continue to be banned? thanks. Britishfinance (talk) 15:16, 9 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It might be interesting for our readers to see how you were accused of being a paid editor by (apparent) paid editors and how they took it into the mainstream press. Any opinion you have about paid editing is welcome, but as I wrote, it's best that it is just a few short paragraphs. Smallbones(smalltalk)15:25, 9 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
RE: Extinction Symbol. SPA/COI accounts: a word or three of advice
I have been editing the Wikipedia since before you were a member and have had experience all the way up to WP:ARBCOM. Trust me when I write that I don't need lectures about policy, especially when editors are blatantly making stuff up. One of the reason why edit without logging in is to keep an eye on how established editors such as yourself and admins treat what are apparently newcomers, and it upsets me when members exploit their presumed ignorance of the way things work.
No, it's not WP:SOCK. It's perfectly legitimate. I could operate more than one account for doing so if I wanted.
They post the content they want, and remove the content they WP:DONTLIKE, exercising WP:OWNERSHIP of their topics.
Creating distractions
They create distractions and obfuscations because a vague and inaccurate topic from an uninformed editor is better for them than a clear and accurate topic from an informed one that, again they DONTLIKE.
Engineering nastiness
They engineer plain and simple nastiness that puts off genuine editors as few want to get involved in those sort of disputes and risk their account's reputation. One of the benefits of which is their page or pages protected which, if they are lucky, will happen at "their" version.
In short, you basically delivered the last two, especially with the TD;LR copy and pastes from your own talk page that would have made it very difficult for anyone coming in to follow. Or want to.
Using the tools
You have access to various tools to allow you to see what is going on, eg WP:CHECK, filters such as here and others. Please use them.
First things first
When dealing with a SPA/COI account, deal with that first before you allow them to muddy the waters or, indeed, go on to muddy the waters yourself either wittingly or unwittingly.
Case in hand
On a scale of 1 to 10, how bad would say a case is where a SPA/COI account persistently :removes the same material,
removes content from talk pages, and even
removes contant from other people's talk pages?
I would have said 10. You may vary slightly. I'd say it was an immediate indefinite ban or at the very least if, you are feeling charitable, a topic ban and an invitation to the WP:TEAhouse to learn some policies and manners; which they will ignore as they are here for one purpose only.
I am sorry that I just have not got the time and energy to chew over the minutiae of policies and essays as I am supposed to be enjoying a holiday, and you are supposed to be enjoying your semi-retirement.
Perhaps you should be working harder at it, and ask yourself why you are attracted to such conflicts?
I don't care who XYLO is (per your note above in "Extinction symbol"; they have zero mention in any reliable RS, so have little relevance to WP articles).
I don't care about user Goldfrog23 (and their IP account), and whether they are an SPA (they definitely have a COI issue); but I have re-written the article and all refs to address COI.
You, and your various 182.132* range of IP accounts, were exposed on the Extinction symbol Talk Page as trying to use a Wikipedia article to promote XYLO as the artist who created the Extinction symbol, and delete quality references to ESP/ESP Goldfrog as the attributed artist (which all the best RS support), and which user Goldfrog23 was likely trying to fix (and getting very distressed doing so).
You should read your own material above re WP:SOCK accounts as you have edited from at least six different IPs that I count (one of which was blocked and all of which were templated for editing issues), but you should also read about a bunch of other WP policies as well. Lets run through these IP accounts. Britishfinance (talk) 21:14, 10 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
82.132.213.209 talk – only two entries, 3m block (2017), level 2 vandalism warning (2018)
Thanks a lot for your hard work rewriting the article and sorting all this mess, I will try to keep an eye on the article in the near future! -- Luktalk11:58, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Luk: Thanks for that! I am not an environmentalist by any means (although I am increasingly concerned about it), but I have a feeling that this symbol is going to become a lot more notable over time and hence my desire to fix the article as best I could. thanks again. Britishfinance (talk) 12:02, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@82.132.215.61: After reviewing the talk page and the current condition of the article, I feel that Britishfinance's rewriting clears the style and neutrality issues I noticed when encountering the article last Sunday. No need to invoke any kind of seniority on Wikipedia editing (or ArbCom), please bring reliable sources on the talk page if you feel the article is not balanced. -- Luktalk13:00, 12 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
additional detail from the 82.132* accounts (pushing XYLO agenda
Hi, just dropped by to add a quick note (probably from yet another IP address. I don't know, I have not checked).
Luk, why on earth bother wasting your time building up a bogus case? These are all just public access, dynamic IP addresses that the tools available to use would quickly identify as different users. I was not asserting authority, just heading off BF patronising me.
BF, I read over that essay linked to from your user page. Although far broader in scope than what I wrote, I can find very little that I cannot agree with nor which contradicts what I wrote.
Where you and it gets it wrong, however, is perceiving the Wikipedia to be an encyclopedia whereas it is really just a computer war game where factoids and policies are the weapons, where the content is the battlefield, and into which real world COI seap in to battle over how reality is to be seen and which is one not by what is right, but by whoever is willing and able to invest the time and energy to defend their territories. And pretty much as futile as fighting over a drawing in the sand.
Surely by now you are conscious of this? Just take a look at pretty much any religious, political or nationalistic topic.
You're still digging your heels in and distorting reality over this. I never tried to use a Wikipedia article to "promote XYLO as the artist" who created the Extinction symbol, all I did was fill in the history that ESP "was originally known or promoted themselves as XYLO" (indeed, the symbol symbolized X-Y-L-O). There is a distinct difference between the two.
From a policy point of view, I refer back to WP:COMMONSENSE/WP:IGNORE (and why the first is not a written policy, "It doesn't need to be; as a fundamental principle, it is above any policy").
Art becomes notable because of where and how it is displayed. Galleries and shows are like journals for sciences papers. Other mediums forms such as documentaries are also RS.
What you have here are numerous earlier references to the creator as XYLO. Somehow that has to be squared by the topic (and not by some ridiculous fantasy).
For example, here, it is documented as or with the notable artist Carrie Reichardt who has worked as or with XYLO on extinction symbols from a date long before the symbol became notable to the degree it is now.
Next to this piece was a collaboration in progress by Xylo (originally covered here) and Carrie Reichardt. Carrie Reichardt created all of the tiles with political and environmental messages on them. Her focus was on bees. I think this will look amazing once it's finished.
Note how XYLO also uses the Goldenfrog motif.
Now, your interpretation of the RS policy is incorrect. There is no such thing as "tier 1" references, and policy specifically states that not all content taken from such sources would meet WP:RS as, eg, it differentiates from proper reportage and lightweight opinion pieces.
As I have correctly highlighted, there is a problem relying on the sources you have, as they are part of an WP:COI echo chamber.
*A COI editor quoting a newspaper article,
*that quotes a blog,
*that is quoting the very same COI editor,
*working up their own PR.
Now know, that is a serious problem. You can kneejerk into denial and attempt to building up a defence based on manipulating policy to suit your position (see my comment re WP:BATTLEGROUND up above), but ultimately it has to be taken into consideration. I appreciate that I am in a privileged positon of actually knowning who they are, but I am not exploit that here.
Don't revert again. The editor has not retired, and they are currently misusing the retirement tag. You mean well, bless your heart, but please read up before making such bold reversions. CassiantoTalk22:23, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Cassianto: I think we both mean well, but this whole "thing" has gone crazy now (the BN should be on admin-suicide watch). This is going to take weeks to solve, and ultimately the legal view (which I am guessing will be the BoT/WMF view), is going to prevail, regardless of the thousands of lines of text written. In the meantime, really good admins like Rob (who I have found really really good in my time), are heading for the exits because ... well, you know why. More civility amongst editors will not hurt the situation, given the central issue is civility? You have already made your point in his Talk Page (and I understand it), hammering it in again is not helpful to anybody – yourself included? I will leave it to you to decide. thanks. Britishfinance (talk) 22:42, 13 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It took you two days to decide if my comment - and only my comment, I might add - was "grave dancing", even though the editor in question is still editing and misusing the retirement tag? I have to question your agenda? You are still yet to acknowledge these two things that I mentioned to you above. With regards to my "gravedancing", I think it disgusting that someone can openly call another person "an abuser", without evidence, and be seen to get away with it. If that were you or I, or anyone else, we would expect to be blocked. Oh, and FWIW, my opinion is that Rob has been a terrible admin and is someone who should never have had the tools in the first place. He has acted with his own, biased agenda at ArbCom, conducted himself elsewhere in a biased manner in disputes, certainly around infoboxes, and then wonders why there is not much respect for him when he steps down as a committee member. Of late, I think we have seen the very best in admins like Floquenbeam, Bishonen, and WJBScribe, and the very worst in BURob13. CassiantoTalk07:15, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Cassianto: So we disagree on Rob, big deal. He was voted in by the community as an admin and onto ArbCom, so he can't be all bad? I am not fully familiar with the other names you advocate, but they seem fine to me. I came back a day later having left a "sorry to see you go" post on Rob's TP, to see a subsequent "hard" comment repeating other "hard" comments already made to Rob earlier. It made me sad to see that, and done during a "crisis" regarding civility? Ultimately, there is no long-term future for WP if it makes enemies of ordinary editors? It can only diminish our (e.g. all of us) enjoyment of WP and reason for volunteering so much unpaid time to the project. As I said earlier, this situation will get resolved and it will likely be driven by legal considerations. I have seen enough BoTs to know that no trustee (without exception), is going to over-rule legal concerns over things like civility. It is right people feel strongly about this – the issues are serious, and material questions need to be answered; however, hammering things is not helping anybody's case. thanks. Britishfinance (talk) 09:18, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
!votes at a silly RfA, a flawed process in itself, is not an indication that the person nominated is a pillar of the community. Quite often, people do little research before quick supporting in order to earn brownie points in the future. Do you think it's acceptable to label someone as "an abuser" without diffs, evidence, or links? What about the editing behind a retirement tag? CassiantoTalk09:32, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Cassianto: RfA is certainly not a perfect process, however, you see my point – on the most objective process we have, Rob has enjoyed community support? I don't think Rob was implying "child abuse", but it is not unreasonable given that FRAM themselves have disclosed the WMF have sanctioned them over a series of events? He could have chosen better words, however, that is why I left the earlier comments alone. My point is the hammering, and its relation to civility. You interpret Rob's editing post-retirement one way, I interpret it as Rob trying to be helpful (as I always found him to be, even when other admins gave up). Britishfinance (talk)
I've done a partial breakdown of the new sources on Extinction symbol. Few meet the standards for WP:RS. You're not just contradicting yourself as to the acceptability of blog sources but WP:CHERRYPICKING.
Ditto, you yourself also quoted WP:TALKO so best adhere to it.
Another attempt to fake attribution to XYLO, the east end lad called Dave (per Talk Page), trying to fool tourists that he created the Extinction Symbol.
Dave Stuart isn't an "East End Lad", nor is he claiming to be the creator of the Extinction symbol. He is a professional and probably the leading expert in London Street Art scene.
Mores to the point, he knows and has corresponded with XYLO/ESP for many years.
Dave's position is, to quote him directly, he has "no desire to piss on Xylo's chips" if they want to re-market if they want to remarket themselves as ESP.
That's why I say, in order to be sure of your position, ask either of them directly in order to gain some kind of perspective on this issue.
You are going way beyond the point of reasonable in this issue and contravening numerous policies to do so. Your screaming and hectoring and repeating of ungrounded and, quite frankly, ridiculous accusation won't make some true; nor make something that is true any less true. I think you need to get a grip and regain your neutrality.
I asked you to stop copy and pasting discussion between us on to the talk page in order to confuse things even further.
I asked you to stop re-writing what I wrote in a prejudicial manner, re WP:TALKO. I am asking you again. Anything beyond this point will be clear evidence of bad faith and deliberate provocation.
"Never edit or move someone's comment to change its meaning, even on your own talk page."
@Luk:@82.132.216.240: I am going to have to ask you not to come to my talk page anymore. I have gone to great lengths to answer your questions (per above), and have pasted in your questions (plus my answers) to the article Talk Page to help other editors understand you (which is permitted). COI concerns are outlined on the Talk Page (more WP:ICANTHEARYOU); you should not edit the article directly. You are not acting in good faith, your actions feel like harassment and intimidation. Britishfinance (talk) 10:12, 19 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@82.132.216.240: I just noticed that you deleted the "COI of 82.132* account re XYLO" heading on the article Talk Page regarding the concerns on your COI [2]. Deleting it does not make it go away I'm afraid (more WP:ICANTHEARYOU).. Britishfinance (talk) 12:06, 19 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Advice re Featured Lists
Hi, Britishfinance. If you're going to make FLC nominations in the future, there should definitely be separate nominations for each article. Even if they have elements in common, they will all have certain unique items, and reviewers may discover issues in later FLCs that they missed in previous noms. Before you try nominations, I see a couple of issues that would likely sink a potential nom if left unfixed. First, and most importantly, the tables themselves don't have any apparent citations in the first article you listed, at least. It looks like the citation is meant to be provided in the short text preceding the table, but I think we'd want something more evidently a table reference. As you're probably going to want to avoid doing 2,000 individual cites (in one of the lists I looked at), I'd recommend taking the hill database (or whatever is backing a given column) and adding cites to it in the table headings. That will support the content sufficiently to meet FL standards in that regard.
Second, you're going to want to improve the lead sections of these lists. The ones I looked at start with "This is a list of", which is thought of as outdated among FLC reviewers. We wouldn't start a non-list page with "This is an article about", after all. Try to make the introductions more interesting to the readers, like the Birketts list (whose opening sentence looks solid to me). The Marilyns in the British Isles list had a short one-paragraph lead, which you're going to want to expand to three or four paragraphs, a length matching some of your other lists. Also, a couple of the lists have numerous red links. The featured list criteria call for "a minimal proportion" of red links, so that's something a reviewer might question you about. There may be other issues with the lists, as I didn't do any comprehensive reviews, but this feedback should give you an idea of what the reviewers will be looking for. Overall, there's some work needed, but they look like interesting topics and Main Page readers would probably like them if one or more of the lists were to run someday. Giants2008 (Talk) 23:48, 26 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Giants2008. Many thanks for your help. I understand re the sourcing, I have given a full paragraph on the sourcing (with footnote) in each of the articles, however, I will also convert into an in-line citation attached to the table heading. The table is a download from the DoBIH database, but usefully, the DoBIH also provide an online searchable interface so any entry can be checked separately (e.g. I should not need to reference each individual line). Re the second part about the lede, I can also fix that - do you have examples of FLs that might look similar to the type of lists I am doing that might serve as a guide/template? I will try and pick one list as a test-case (with your fixes above), however, if you have any guidance on a particular one that you would use, I would appreciate your view on that. thanks again. Britishfinance (talk) 19:35, 27 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
For lead sections, I recommend taking a look at WP:FLC and reading the leads for some of the candidates. There are sure to be several that will be helpful as guides for your lists. I don't know if there's one that's similar to your lists, but even unrelated lists should give you some basic ideas. You'll find that most of them are three paragraphs or so, and provide an introduction to the subject in question while being interesting for the readers. Giants2008 (Talk) 18:37, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Breitbart
You can ask for whitelisting of that Breitbart article for the Fram Summary ( Defer to Whitelist). It is one of the rare exceptions of whitelisting somethin for linking outside of mainspace (though not unprecedented). --Dirk BeetstraTC04:10, 30 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Gråbergs Gråa Sång facepalming myself there! Have never seen those two other sets of pages? I have been on WP for over year and never saw the reference desk - how do others find this? I am amazed that editors have the time and bandwidth to answer these questions? thanks. Britishfinance (talk) 17:51, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Starship.paint. Very sorry to hear that but I can understand. You are a great editor (your work is really very good), and unfortunately got caught in a rule that many of us (myself included) don't fully appreciate at times. I have a feeling we will see you back again some day. All the best. Britishfinance (talk) 10:26, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Flouting the rule was indeed my mistake. But had the admin been Dennis Brown [5], things would have turned out differently. That said, I know that Tony was acting in the interests of the project, and that his actions were within the range of acceptable ones. starship.paint (talk)10:37, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I do not think tensions was the cause. I'd just like to leave a quote. If the reason the WMF stepped in was because they thought that we couldn’t handle cases like this, the way to prove them right is to not take any action when someone targets their staff members. Yes, this whole situation is a complete mess, but blocking people for inappropriate actions in it and letting the appeals process play out shows that we do have community self-governances and that it should be taken seriously.starship.paint (talk)11:12, 1 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
In a related matter, the account throttle has been restored to six creations per day as the mitigation activity completed.
The scope of CSD criterion G8 has been tightened such that the only redirects that it now applies to are those which target non-existent pages.
The scope of CSD criterion G14 has been expanded slightly to include orphan "Foo (disambiguation)" redirects that target pages that are not disambiguation pages or pages that perform a disambiguation-like function (such as set index articles or lists).
The Wikimedia Foundation's Community health initiative plans to design and build a new user reporting system to make it easier for people experiencing harassment and other forms of abuse to provide accurate information to the appropriate channel for action to be taken. Community feedback is invited.
Miscellaneous
In February 2019, the Wikimedia Foundation (WMF) changed its office actions policy to include temporary and project-specific bans. The WMF exercised this new ability for the first time on the English Wikipedia on 10 June 2019 to temporarily ban and desysop Fram. This action has resulted in significant community discussion, a request for arbitration (permalink), and, either directly or indirectly, the resignations of numerous administrators and functionaries. The WMF Board of Trustees is aware of the situation, and discussions continue on a statement and a way forward. The Arbitration Committee has sent an open letter to the WMF Board.
I agree with what you wrote here (though could you consider correcting your typo from 'formerly' to 'formally'?). There is Wikipedia:Community bulletin board but that is not what I think you are looking for. There are pages over at the WMF wikis where formal announcements can be made, but there does need to be somewhere here as well. It is amazing in some ways that no such centralised contact area exists. It drives home how anarchic the site can be. The best place I found for the WMF was over on meta at meta:Wikimedia Foundation Board noticeboard. I am going to suggest to Doc James that a copy of the statement be formally posted there. Carcharoth (talk) 15:46, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Carcharoth. Have fixed the typo now. Yes, I thought that there was one but that I just could not find it. Seem like an obvious idea given that everyone accepts now that en-Wiki/ArbCom/WMF need to talk more often in a forum that everybody on en-Wiki sees (e.g. not a meta noticeboard). thanks for your comments, much appreciated. Britishfinance (talk) 15:51, 4 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Britishfinance. Please note that 193.39.159.73 is a shared (library) IP address, and most edits from there aren't vandalism. The Ulmus edits are by a different person and are genuine and based on verifiable facts, knowledge & experience. Please don't revert these (unless of course there are obvious signs of vandalism). Thank you. 213.48.83.176.
213.48.83.176, no problem. I would advise you to either get an account, or leave longer edit summaries (and even a note on the talk page of each article), because (1) you are making material edits (deleting referenced sections and other such), with minimal summaries, and (2) from an IP that has a "rap sheet" of blocks and vandalism. I will take your word for it that your edits are in good faith, but I think you would help your case with an account, or at least, a fuller explanation of your aims on each article on its TP. thanks and happy editing. Britishfinance (talk) 14:51, 15 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Why would you want to convict view media reports someone that has never been charged. How do you know she is not helping or cooperating in the investigation, you don't. WP:NPOV Your carefully crafted draft cites, recitations of news that was reported 14 years ago. If she is charged then run with it, but I think it should be done only if she is convicted, otherwise from a legal perspective she could come after the site for its slanted claims in your draft.--2600:8802:2200:2320:29ED:4D34:26:940A (talk) 09:24, 2 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(regarding the Nadia Marcinko article). You have the wrong impression of how Wikipedia functions. We don't take views on things or provide information that would be used for investigations. We simply report on what independent reliable sources say (per WP:RS). It is that simple. You are deleting material which is referenced to recent articles from some of the most reliable sources that Wikipedia uses (per WP:RS/P), including WP:SIGCOV pieces by The Guardian and Wired. Don't make legal threats (a big mistake on Wikipedia); if any of the RS are successfully sued by the subject, then the articles will be withdrawn; however, sources like The Guardian do not have a record of printing such material. Britishfinance (talk) 09:29, 2 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Following a research project on masking IP addresses, the Foundation is starting a new project to improve the privacy of IP editors. The result of this project may significantly change administrative and counter-vandalism workflows. The project is in the very early stages of discussions and there is no concrete plan yet. Admins and the broader community are encouraged to leave feedback on the talk page.
Since the introduction of temporary user rights, it is becoming more usual to accord the New Page Reviewer right on a probationary period of 3 to 6 months in the first instance. This avoids rights removal for inactivity at a later stage and enables a review of their work before according the right on a permanent basis.
I am a new Wikipedia contributor and have done the main tutorials and introductions and read the protocols and conventions carefully.
Looking at the many contributions you have made I am in awe as to how you do it. I see you have been given many accolades and that is what I will aspire to.
But I digress.
The purpose of communicating with you is to get your feedback on what constitutes worthwhile additions and what doesn’t.
I have a good friend in Florida who happens to be a neighbor of Sharon Rich, the author. I mentioned to her that I had become a contributor to Wikipedia and she told me that Sharon had both her own website and a Wikipedia article but was most upset at what had occurred to her.
She believes that additions had been added to her Wikipedia article which were not relevant to her. She just wanted a simple page that has similar content to that on her website.
I said I would have a look at it for her and I saw what she meant.
Could I call upon your kind consideration to give me permission to delete those parts that are causing her distress?
Bzcons44 (talk) 23:56, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'll respond here: you may not introduce that content again on the Sharon Rich article, and certainly not based on a partial memoir from a heavily involved party published on a non-neutral website. She does not appear to be notable as a Scientologist at all, and placing that template on her page is total overkill. A note about her nephew may be acceptable, but it requires better sourcing than Tony Ortega's website. Please don't make me put a BLP warning, or a note about discretionary sanctions, on your talk page. Drmies (talk) 20:28, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The first is that Sharon Rich is the aunt of Nathan Rich. I participated in the fix-up of Rich's BLP, and its AfD. Tony Ortega is considered a useful source on Scientology (per AfD) and I don't use his site for views but just biographical details; Nathan Rich's own book Scythe Tleppo states that Sharon is his aunt; and here is a video made by a Scientology group, that at 0.30 has Sharon Rich being interviewed as Nathan Rich's aunt. Scientology and the Aftermath: Nathan Rich (made as reply to Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath)
The second revert is regarding Sharon's position as a Scientologist. She gets a mention in Andrew Morton's book [Tom Cruise: An Unauthorized Biography], and has publically gone on record in the earlier video regarding Nathan (made as part of the Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath event). Someone doesn't have to be a "notable Scientologist" for the fact that they are a Scientologist to be noted in their BLP (just as long as there is an RS to verify it; which there is). However, on reflection, I think you are right re the template.
I hope this clarifies why chronicling that she is the aunt of Nathan Rich is appropriate and worthwhile (it would be odd not to make the connection between two WP:BLPs), and ditto for the fact that she is a Scientologist (although without the template), and he connection to the Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath. Britishfinance (talk) 23:02, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That she is a Scientologist, fine; that she is the aunt of an anti-Scientologist, I suppose. That she gets a mention here or there, and is interviewed in a documentary, that is not good enough: BLP calls for high standards, and that really means published sources. I watched a bit of that video--that is not the kind of evidence that will ever be acceptable here; if I understand it correctly it's made to smear the man's character. That's not just not-neutral, that's unreliable. But putting that in her article places that onus on her, and that's not cool either, since we don't know what she said exactly and in what context and all that. For all we know it was edited or warped. Leah Remini: Scientology and the Aftermath is out too: again we're talking about a documentary from a TV channel whose neutrality and reliability is questionable, and this person is only noteworthy in relation to one single person interviewed in one of 36 episodes. Whether Tony Ortega is useful or not cannot be decided via an AfD, and "useful" as he may be, I do not see why he should be acceptable as a source in a BLP. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 22:10, 9 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Drmies. Thanks. Agreed re the video as unsuitable for a BLP, but it is just to triangulate that it is not hard to show she is his aunt (i.e. she is not going to appear in a glossy production as his aunt, if that was untrue); however, the right source is his book, and I do think that Tony Ortega is a useful additional source (yes, AfD is not a decider of an RS, but where it gets a larger audience than the RS noticeboard, it is not a bad process, imho). Also agreed re Leah Remini (which is covered in his BLP and more related to him then Sharon; he was a noted subject of the Remini series). So, I will note that she is a scientologist (ref to Andrew Morton), and Nathan Rich is her nephew (ref to Nathan and support ref by Tony)? Also, I think I should paste our discussion above to her Talk Page for other editors as a guide (and they may have other views)? thanks. Britishfinance (talk) 23:35, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Editors using the mobile website on Wikipedia can opt-in to new advanced features via your settings page. This will give access to more interface links, special pages, and tools.
The advanced version of the edit review pages (recent changes, watchlist, and related changes) now includes two new filters. These filters are for "All contents" and "All discussions". They will filter the view to just those namespaces.
A global request for comment is in progress regarding whether a user group should be created that could modify edit filters across all public Wikimedia wikis.
Following a discussion, a new criterion for speedy category renaming was added: C2F: One eponymous article, which applies if the category contains only an eponymous article or media file, provided that the category has not otherwise been emptied shortly before the nomination. The default outcome is an upmerge to the parent categories.
Technical news
As previously noted, tighter password requirements for Administrators were put in place last year. Wikipedia should now alert you if your password is less than 10 characters long and thus too short.
Disputed non-free use rationale for File:THEA Award Logo.jpg
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Hi Barkeep49. My fear is that this article has a UPE aspect (made by an SPA), and thus a soft delete will see it return in some other guise. I was hoping that a re-list would generate some stronger reaction for you to get a more stable result. Hope that makes sense. Britishfinance (talk) 17:22, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Britishfinance, my preference would be to have it soft deleted. Some sort of COI seems likely and I suspect it was created in order to help nudge along the merger but I think it's unlikely to be recreated and even having the soft delete on record would still be helpful should it ever be recreated. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 17:38, 5 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
7&6=thirteen (☎) has given you a Dobos torte to enjoy! Seven layers of fun because you deserve it.
To give a Dobos torte and spread the WikiLove, just place ((subst:Dobos Torte)) on someone else's talkpage, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend.
I am of the opinion the Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alan Pangbornmerge closure of closure of the AfD was not respected. It has become clear some of the merge proposers had no intention or inclination to do a merge but merely a redirect and there appears to be little consideration as to the actual target of which there appears to be several candidates and a poor choice at AfD. I am inclined this is a WP:DRV matter. Any comments? Djm-leighpark (talk) 20:23, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Djm-leighpark – that is disappointing to hear. I wonder if DRV is the best way. For example, if an AfD was closed as a straight Redirect, and someone removed the Redirect, the change would be just reverted rather than going back to DRV? Reverting back to the merge tags that the XFDcloser places on the article could be a start. At least it would undo a non-consensus merge, but you are back to having someone then do the merge (which is always a slight flaw of AfD with merge). If an editor started to edit war against a consensus AfD close (and it was a consensus), then, after a talk page discussion, you are probably heading for ANI (or just call in an admin). Does that make sense? Britishfinance (talk) 21:08, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'll have a chew. Despite what the mergers are claiming its a mess. I could back out the redirect but might lead to an edit war. I need to look up WP:DRV first ... Or maybe need to go through formal merge proposals is another option. Got to dash for a bit. Djm-leighpark (talk) 21:22, 17 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The deletion discussion !votes were (if I have not miscounted) nom(delete), 2(keep), 1(keep or merge), 8(merge), 0(redirect), 0(merge or redirect). I am concerned merge means merge and redirect means redirect and the majority of this afd was to retain and attribute content from the original article and there was no consensus to redirect. I regard the current outcome (as regards the article) as controversial, as such should have been handled by an admin per WP:BADNAC]] if that was predictable (arguably it was if digging deeply enough) but possibly not. The only case for WP:DRV come under if significant new information has come to light since a deletion that would justify recreating the deleted page. ... the significant new information being those !voting merge did not seems to either have the competency or will to carry out there commitment to merge content. Wikipedia:Articles for merging seems dead. I also have options of re-running the AfD .... that looks horrible .... or perhaps doing a WP:PROMERGE to Dark Half but it might be controversial and need a discusssion and I'd want to restore the page for the banner. (Bear in mind I would prefer keep to that merge).Djm-leighpark (talk) 09:43, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Djm-leighpark. I think you would find it hard to argue that it was a WP:BADNAC given that last 9 !votes in a row (notwithstanding one was also a Keep/Merge) were all aligned to merge to Castle Rock (Stephen King). That is almost as unambiguous as it gets for a NAC. For example, if the last two !votes were different, I would have left it (or considered a re-list). The problem is that another editor(s) has ignored the AfD and Redirected to another destination. I would simply revert their edits to bring it back to the immediate post-AfD status of having a tag to merge to Stephen King (Castle Rock). At that stage, a discussion on the talk page should be had, ideally with the participants of the AfD. Unless their view has changed (if it has, then that can have an effect), then they can re-confirm it – has this already happened? thanks. Britishfinance (talk) 09:57, 18 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Britishfinance. Your recent edit at ANI contains no pointer in the edit summary as to what section it pertains to. The edit summary is just '(reply)'. If you check the edit history of ANI you'll notice that most edits have these pointers. It would be helpful if you could somehow manage to preserve these pointers, so that anyone who has ANI on their watchlist can tell if you are working on a topic that is of interest to them. It's my impression that hitting the 'Edit' button next to the section header generally pre-fills the edit summary field with a section pointer, allowing you to save it with your edit. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 21:39, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
A survey to improve the community consultation outreach process
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Please stop aggressively closing discussions after minimal input. I have had to reopen one today. Closing discussions is normally done by admins on the admin boards, long-stale discussions can be closed or archived but many of those you have closed, the ink is barely dry on the original complaint. As a rule of thumb, three days with no input is fine to close. Less than 24h, not so much. Guy (help!) 15:46, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
JzG, thanks for that and I hear you. I thought given the user was longer term blocked it was done, but subsequent events proved me wrong. I see your rationale now. Sorry again, Britishfinance (talk) 17:13, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]