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Please I would very much like to know which Editor is deleting the links to the Post-Tsunami (Tunami) Archive (Namely http://www.photoduck.com/pollyfodder). This is the only site that updates it's NEWS album with the latest news and photos from a multitude of sources including NGOs 24/7 and has done so since 26 December. There are over 10,000 photos and several thousand news stories relating to the 26 December earthquake/tsunami (Tunami) and recent Earthquake off Northern Sumatra. With over 5 Gig of information I feel it has plenty to contribute! You will find the links in the photo and news sections in "External links". I would really appreciate it if whoever is responsible could Email me so the matter can be discussed. My Email address is on my profile page in the archive. I have spoken with Terry and he has suggested that I post this message. Kindest regards to all! Peter (POLLYFODDER)
The origin of the term tsunami is from fisherman who came back from fishing and found everything devestated in the port though they didn't see or noticed the wave in the open water. My English is not sufficent so could someone else add this info
I am a Japanese(so that I can't write English well), and I am sure we Japaene have the word of Tsunami.
Tsunami is actually discribed by two Kanjis(Chinese Characters) like Tsu-Nami.
Tsu means as everybody says, small port or quay where boat can land.
Nami means wave.
Usually Japanese does not know why TSUNAMI comes from PORT-WAVE. Even to me, I don't know.
(For instance, can you answer why you say "knock on woods", when you hope a good luck? Maybe no one can. It might be same thing.)
But my guess is as follows. Tsunami comes from big wave which strikes a port with village. "With Village" is an importatnt point. I mean, originally s TSU meant small port or quay in front of village, but long time after, TSU could become to mean a village name which is with port. That's because I can find several city with "TSU" on its name. So that I would say TSUNAMI means BIG WAVE hitting coastal TOWN. Of course Tsunami strikes everywhere on coastal line, but if no one was there, then no one can see it hitting coastal line and breaks some stuff. So I guess usually you see a lot of people there at village and when you got Tsunami, then possibly someone among them can see it hitting and breaking the village. That's my best guess from Japanese knowledge. We Japanese believes that usually Tsunami is caused by a bigearthquake. Arigato.(Massy,SC Japanese redneck)
Massy, again. I checked kannji-TSU(津)meaning in Chinese-Japanese dictionary. This kanji means 4 meanings. 1.Liquid as dripping drop. 2.Ford where a boat can land. 3.Some condition like emerging something continuously. 4.Money for life. As you see, usually one Kanji(Chinese Character) can mean several unrelated meanings each other. But as far as I checked I cannot find a meaning of "STRONG" of which Japanese meaning "TUYOI", as you mentioned above. Therefore I don't think I can support your hypothesis like "TUYOI NAMI" (means strong waves) can be contracted to "TSUNAMI". Arigato. (Massy,Japanese Redneck.SC USA)
The photos claiming to be "2004 Indian Ocean tsunami" need to be authenticated. I've seen at last two of these already that are NOT of tsunami NOR from the 2004 tsunami. The photos were of a tidel bore from the Qian Tang Jiang River, in Hangzhou, China http://www.snopes.com/photos/tsunami/tsunami1.asp
Whether tsunami = tidal wave is a valid question, but first things first: why does the page have it pronounced "s[mung]-N[mung]-[mung]i"???? Even if half the letters weren't munged, it looks more like "so-NO-mi" at best!
The pronunciation is "tsoo-NAH-mee", reflecting the original. I have heard a few illiterate slobs drop the T, but it is giving them far too much credit to say "often pronounced as...". Sure, lots of words are often mispronounced; you don't need to start making excuses for them! What next, Mao Se-Tung and the African Se-Se Fly????
I am not talking about Japanese; I am talking about English. One would no more say /sumani/ than one would say /se-tung/ or /se-se fly/ (using your notation).
Perhaps in the midwest where no one has ever seen water, anything goes. Here on the coasts it has been a common word for a long time, and the T is always pronounced.
If you really want to debate the Japanese *original*, well, then "sunami" means "vinegar wave". I don't recall seeing one of those since the Great Molasses Flood of 1917(?) in Boston.
Orphan redirect for Google: tidal wave
I do not agree that Tsunami is a misnomer. Most likely these wave phenomenons were witnesswed in populated areas of Japan, where busy ports just so happened to be found. Thus, the name.
I removed the word "misnomer" from the article. My reason was not because the term "tidal wave" isn't a misnomer — it is. Rather, my reason was because the term "tsunami" is also a misnomer, since it means "wave in port" and tsunami have little more to do with ports than they have to do with tides. Fg2 04:47, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)
If "tidal wave" is incorrect, why does it redirect here? Does it refer to something else? If it refers to something else, "tidal wave" should go there. If not, then how is it incorrect? Just because a tsunami is not actually a tide doesn't mean that the name "tidal wave" must be incorrect, it's just a name, making a certain comparison to a tide.
It shouldn't redirect because "tidal wave" and "tsunami" are synonyms, in common use as such to describe eaethquake-generated wave surges. Tidal bores are an unrelated phenomenon.--Centauri 11:57, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I just looked up tidal wave in the OED to be sure—"an exceptionally large ocean wave, especially one caused by an underwater earthquake or volcanic eruption." Tsunami is a Japanese loan word. IMHO the introduction and redirects need to be changed to reflect Standard English. 12.74.168.161 05:26, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
-- just cause you looked it up does not mean it is correct, tidal wave is not used by academics and is not correct in this instance.
For general use it does not really matter whether you use "tidal wave" or "tsunami" as long as people understand what you mean. I have know oceanographers use both but we have a minor problem in that although the physics involved is essentially the same, both waves have velocities independent of depth and propagate in much the same way, it is sometimes necessary to distinguish between the long waves generated by the Moon and Sun and those generated by earthquakes. The use of the word tsunami solves the problem for everyone except the Japanese, as tsunami to them means tidal wave. See: Neumann, G. and Pierson, W.J., Principals of Physical Oceanography, Prentice-Hall, 1966. For the roots of the word tsunami see Darbyshire, J. and Ishiguro, S., Nature, 1957, Vol 180, p150 (and yes there is an close connection with Kazuo Ishiguro, the author of "An artist of the Floating World"). David Webb 19:55, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
--
I always thought that for the Japanese it meant Harbor wave.
A gentle reminder—the Oxford English Dictionary is the accepted authority for English usage, whether within academia or not. However, the OED makes no preference between tidal wave or tsunami except to say that tsunami is of Japanese origin. Too, usage of a term only by specialists in a particular field is jargon and would not appear in an encyclopedic article unless noted as such. That is not the case with tsunami, however, since it is an accepted synonym for tidal wave.
Oh, about whether to use tidal wave or tsunami—it is a preferential thing. I can only quote for an authority, EB White's Rule 20 in his addendum to The Elements of Style. "Avoid foreign languages. The writer will occasionally find it convenient or necessary to borrow from other languages. Some writers, however, from sheer exuberance or a desire to show off, sprinkle their work liberally with foreign expressions, with no regard for the reader's comfort. It is a bad habit. Write in English". Amen. If an English word is available that means the same, use it. If we're voting, this article should be titled Tidal wave.
If the distance between LA and Tokyo is just under 9000km, and tsunamis travel at 700km/h, it would take just under 13 hours - not 18 as stated - for a tsunami generated off the US west coast to reach Japan... or am I missing something here? --Centauri 11:54, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
You are more correct than I was, I was thinking of a different subduction zone quake... I think tsunamis go faster though ( i have seen values of up to 500 mph or 800km, I will check with people at work) if it is 800mph it comes out to 11.25 hours but it is a tad bit slower as it approaches the shore.
-- ok, average depth of the pacific is calculated at 4188 meters. so this calculates out to 729 kilometers per hour. This would mean that a Cascadia Quake's tsunami would take like 12 hours and 20 minutes to hit japan.
"When that happened about 8 p.m. Eastern time Saturday, pressure that had accumulated for years or decades was released in an instant. As the earth convulsed, the ocean floor probably fell rapidly in some places and rose elsewhere along a fissure hundreds of miles in length, several experts said. Areas that collapsed saw tons of water plunge in, causing what is known as a depression wave. Elsewhere, the ocean floor reared up, causing water to be displaced -- an elevation wave. It is likely that both effects fed the tsunamis" It seem that the waves generated by the side that sunk is called "depression wave" and the side that suddenly rose leads to "elevation wave" Quite obvious names, but good to know neverthless. [1]
When a tsunami is approaching shore, the beach waters retreat, yes? What is this called, and where would an article on it be found? Shouldn't it be mentioned here? --Golbez 18:23, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)
reply to Golbez: I can't find a specific name for this phenomenon, although it has been frequently described. Just before the tsunami hit Lisbon in 1755 (see 1755 Lisbon earthquake), the harbor waters retreated, revealing lost cargo and forgotten shipwrecks. Perhaps this description should be added to the tsunami page as well? --Sandover Dec 27, 2004
The water does not always retreat! In some cases it might, but this does not always happen. A tsunami is just a repetition of BIG waves, which go up and down, but which one comes first depends on the situation. --Anthony Liekens 16:50, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Sometimes the sea retreats and sometimes it floods before a tsunami arrives. According to Geoscience Australia, as reported in today's Sydney Morning Herald, it depends on whether the leading edge of the wave is a trough or a peak. I've modified the article accordingly. --Centauri 03:37, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The answer as to why waters often recede before an approaching tsunami may be more complex, as it is observed that in more than 50% of distal tsunamis the ocean recedes first (drawdown), yet in less than 50% of cases the ocean floor displacement is downward (and also the area of land displaced in a downward direction is usually less than 50% of area displaced). The internal properties of large volumes of water during both internal displacement and long period wave motion may increase the effect of drawdown, especially with increasing distance from source and within deep ocean basins. I haven´t been able to find technical answers on the internet to this issue, however most geophysicists I suspect are not sufficiently trained in oceanic (ie large volumes of water) properties, so the answer may be more complex than just a downward displacement of the ocean floor, with the trough of the wave (corresponding to this downard displacement) arriving first. If this were the case drawdown should not be as common as it is, and also drawdown should not increase in frequency (and possibly relative magnitude or duration) with distance. (Several websites state that distal tsunamis are more commonly preceded by drawdown than proximal tsunamis). Further info\comment\correction contact¨: rogermcevilly@hotmail.com
Another comment on drawdown. I read on the net that so-called 'freak' or 'rogue' waves often exhibit what is called ´´a hole in the ocean´´ (ie a very significant trough preceding the large wave); this trough may be caused by the wave pulling water into it, but possibly also by a number of other properties of large volumes of water during mass water movement, eg surface tension, counter currents (the latter proposed to account for the development of many freak waves). It is stated on many web sites that the´'hole in the ocean phenomenon' is not yet udnerstood, but it may be similar to that of drawdown during tsunamis, at least in some cases. Roger McEvilly
Any video available?
The video in the past few days was made widely available through Wikipedia links posted on the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake website. This footage has profoundly changed our popular understanding of what a tsunami looks like. See my posting about 'phenomenology' below. -- Sandover 19:35, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
"A tsunami (from Japanese 津波 meaning wave in port or "harbour wave") is one or a series of ocean surface waves that can occur after a large earthquake" I think there is a problem with that statement. Tsunami occurs along the whole cross section of the ocean from the ocean bed to the surface unlike the wind propelled waves? Am i missing something here?
A tsunami definitely involves the entire cross section. BTW, I figured out the scaling behaviour of phase speed, particle speed, amplitude and wave length for a tsunami wave approaching the coast. See the German WP. -- Frau Holle 01:20, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
There is no real description of a tsunami (phenomenological explanation) in a human readable level on this page... The reader is immediately dumped into the physics of a tsunami -- which is a section that is dubious anyways -- before even being explained in normal english what a tsunami is all about. I think that an easier to read explanation of what a tsunami is, from where it begins, how it propagates, to how it ends should be added to the page. Maybe we can also provide an explanation along the lines of an example, e.g. move your legs around in your bath and see waves moving around. Update: looks better now than before --Anthony Liekens 15:18, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
From Sandover -- : If possible, the encyclopedia entry should include a vivid description of a tsunami, an acccount which resonates as closely as possible to a first-person beachside eye- and earwitness experience.
Of course the Wikipedia guidelines do not permit first-person constructions, so the entry would have to be accordingly couched: 'A person standing on the beach, witnessing the backdrift of the waters, might not notice...' Of the many horrifying fascinations of the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake is the video, fairly copious amounts of it, collected in Phuket and Malaysia and Sri Lanka. The video show vividly how easily people can be taken by surprise by these things. Before the Dec 26 earthquake I had a very different mind's eye image of a tsunami, and the common misconceptions about tsunami help explain the relative naivete of many of the people filming that day. Had I been standing on the beach in Malaysia, for example, I would not have realized that the wave coming in from the ocean had no 'air' behind it. Our customary understanding of an ocean wave is not helpful. This is more like a shelf of water, and if you at or below its level and do not find higher shelter, you will almost certainly die.
Good vivid writing on Wikipedia might just trickle into the consciousness of this world and perhaps save a few lives one day. Many schoolchildren study and do reports on tsunami consulting this page (no doubt plagiarizing from it), and many others practice their English by reading it. They often convey the knowledge they find here to others. Weren't all the people on one beach in Thailand saved by a 10-year-old English girl who had just done a school report, and sounded concern upon seeing the retreating waters?
A POV description from those few who survived in Banda Aceh, who happened to be upstairs in their resilient two-story homes, would be useful to many. I live within a few hundred yards of the ocean in California, and am now very aware that a Banda Aceh-style tsunami wave, sporting a 10m height, would definitely knock me out of hearth and home quicker than I could run up what I would have thought before this was the nearest and safest hill. I've now plotted a new escape route, and had thoughtful conversations with my neighbors on the subject of seismic sea waves. Indeed, lessons from this tsunami will indeed one day save lives. Not least the lesson that the danger is not over after the first wave.
This Wikipedia entry has evolved beautifully since the December 26 disaster, and it has been a privilege to have participated in its evolution. We can make it something even better if we imagine a greater good. Sandover 19:35, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Does anyone know or can anyone make a formula to do the most basic formula to calculate how far a tsunami's effects will travel inland based on the height of the waves upon hitting land? I think this would be a practical information that could be presented but I have yet to find a formula for it.
-- This is entirely determinant on the topography of the land. The wave will often go until the height of the land is equal to the height of the top of the wave. However there are some instances that they have traveled up river beds quite far. One instance was Hilo Hawaii, I think it went up about 5 miles.
Why are tidal waves being used to define tsuinamis? Didn't they mentioned in the article and above that they were misnomers? Mandel 07:26, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)
-- This is only because people do not know that the words are not used in the same way in current lingo.
--
Some people these days have no clue that the world around them has changed. Some words are being changed and so are the meanings of manners. Some words that were considered slang 10 years ago aren't slang anymore, just like a tidal wave has NOTHING to do with tsunamis. Get into the 21st century, guys! It's been 5 years already. You had a lot of time. -Sarah Jennifer
In the "characteristics" section of the tsunami article, it states: "Tsunamis propagate outward from their source, so coasts in the "shadow" of affected land masses are fairly safe." Yet both Kerala (in India) and the Colombo-Galle train line (in Sri Lanka) were heavily affected by the tsunami, and both are on the "shadow sides" of their respective land masses.
1. Does this mean that the statement about "shadow" areas is untrue?
2. What is the mechanism by which a tsunami would affect the shadow side of a land mass?
It's being claimed that the current Indian ocean tsunami is the most destructive in history. It seems like this is true, but I was wondering if anyone can confirm the existence of a 1703 tsunami that hit Awa, Japan and also caused over 100,000 dead? There are a couple references to this in Google, see e.g. [2] but it doesn't seem to be mentioned at all on WP and on some other sources. Terry 20:42, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC) What about the one in Alaska in the 50's? That was huge. I'm not sure, though, if the damage was as big as the wave was.
Why were the links and refs taken out should they be put back?
I've been cutting back on the galloping links list, removing current-affairs links, web directories, tabloid horror-stories etc Dan100 23:22, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)
I've been removing "Typically undersea earthquakes give rise to between 3 and 5 distinct waves (crests), the second or third of which are usually the largest" with no explanation, sorry. The reason why I'm removing it 'is because tsunamis can be caused be a number of different phenomena, not just earthquakes. Is 3 to 5 waves normal for all tsunamis or just ones caused by quakes? Plus, is it always three to five? Never more or less? Finally, it's explained in the introduction than tsunamis are a series of waves, so this is duplication. Dan100 23:23, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)
I just think that, without any source for verification, three to five is highly unlikely. Why not two to four? Three to seven? Three to five just seems so arbitary. And if 'typically' makes the statement mean 'not necessarily always three to five', then why say it all? You also didn't answer my point regarding the cause - why 'earthquake'? There are many different causes of tsunamis, do all causes lead to three to five ocean waves? Wikipedia deals in verified facts, not conjecture or hypothesis. Please, find sources to back up this statement. Dan100 21:24, Jan 6, 2005 (UTC)
Tsunamis are only created by very large quakes (like mag 7 or larger, however they are caused by events other than quakes too ) and most of the largest quakes are caused by plate subduction. To have a megathrust or subduction zone earthquake you almost have to have a heavy ocean plate subducting beneath a lighter continental crust. The location of the interface of the two plates usually puts the fault just off the coast of the continent.
[moved]
Whether tsunami = tidal wave is a valid question, but first things first: why does the page have it pronounced "s[mung]-N[mung]-[mung]i"???? Even if half the letters weren't munged, it looks more like "so-NO-mi" at best!
The pronunciation is "tsoo-NAH-mee", reflecting the original. I have heard a few illiterate slobs drop the T, but it is giving them far too much credit to say "often pronounced as...". Sure, lots of words are often mispronounced; you don't need to start making excuses for them! What next, Mao Se-Tung and the African Se-Se Fly????
Many people can't say tsunami! That's why there's a 'ad hoc' guide to pronounciation in the article. Please leave it! Dan100 23:32, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)
Dear user 24.123.11.94, please DO NOT replace IPA with American pronounciation until and unless you have convinced the Wiki majority to support your decision to abandon a scientifically accepted, proper pronounciation system with your American pronounciation system - Anon/NE 17:18 5th Jan (UTC)
Your point on WP is entirely correct, but you need to spell it "tsoo-NAH-mee". Unless someone is suffering a cleft palate, there is no difficulty saying "ts". See my above comment about Tse-Tung and Tse-Tse.
As for Grahams "modern browser" comment. I have IE7, and I can easily read Japanese, Thai, Arabic, Russian, Greek, etc. in it. I dunno what mystery characters are supposed to be in those munged boxes tho....
BTW, the mispronunciation of Toyoda as "Toyota" was done long before it reached the US. The founder intentionally tweaked his surname to be cute. The city later was named after the company and thus carries that odd "t". The few other towns sharing this name all pronounce their own as "Toyoda".
I'm with you on "karaoke" and "sake", tho. "Tokyo" is kind of a line call; suggest you go with "Nagoya" or "Yokosuka" instead.
What, you think a German or French or 'illiterate' readers will understand IPA?! And as I have explained ad-nauseum, tsunami was Japanese, but has now been adopted by the scientific community, is pronounced as if it were English, and the English pronounciation is... Dan100 07:10, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)
If you listen to BBC News online (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/ and click on the audio links) or listen to Canadian news, you hear both "sunami" and "tsunami" (with the T pronounced). Various dictionaries show that both pronunciations are correct (actually, my Random House dictionary only shows the pronunciation with T). So both valid pronunciations should be shown. -- Curps 04:36, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Why can't we just include both pronunciations. In Australia everybody says /tsu:na:mi/. Our national dictionary lists only this pronunciation. In the American dictionaries I've looked at I've seen (the equivalent of) /su:na:mi/ which is fine. Some people/populations can pronounce initial "ts" and some cannot. Let's just be one big happy family ok? (-;
There's a few things I don't understand though. Right now the only pronunciation in the article includes a "hooked m" - what is this in English? It is in square brackets whereas phonemic transcriptions (broad transcriptions) ought to use /slashes/. Dictionaries exclusively use phonemic transcriptions. Phonetic (narrow) transcriptions are the realm of linguists. Finally, some good modern dictionaries are now differentiating three symbols for "i": /i:/, /I/, and /i/ to represent the sounds in "heap", "hip" and "happy" respectively. The reasoning is that different people/populatinos pronounced final -y/-i differently. There is a whole range between /I/ and /i:/.
The other problem with IPA (and the SAMPAs) is that it's just an alphabet - it doesn't dictate spelling. There are many different traditions of spelling pronunciations of English in IPA. The biggest divide is between British (or Commonwealth) use and American use. The vast majority of British and European dictionares (especially translating dictionaries) use a British-style IPA spelling. Most American dictionares use an ad-hoc pronunciation system, not IPA. Within the American linguistics community, the IPA spelling seems pretty standard - but "normal people" are unfamiliar with it, unlinke Europeans/Commonwealth people, who are pretty comfortable with it.
This is how I have spelled the pronunciation for Wiktionary where pronunciations are contributed in many varying ways. The three most common are a generic "American dictionary style" system which is sometimes labeled "AHD" even though it is not exactly AHD's system, A Commonwealth-ish IPA which uses parentheses to show optional phonemes which would depend on dialect/accent, and a SAMPAisation of the IPA:
You'll notice that the special Unicode "American dictionary" symbols have even more rendering problems than the IPA characters! But on Wiktionary we've decided to encode what's right and let the OSes/browsers catch up. — Hippietrail 02:23, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The stats for the Alaska tsunami seem to be incorrect. This webpage http://www.wcatwc.gov/64quake.htm indicates that there were waves as high as 67 meters that hit Shoup Bay Alaska. A 19 meter wave hit Narrow Cape Alaska. The WP article indicates the waves only reached 6 meters in height, which according to the West Coast and Alaska Tsunami Warning Center is definitely incorrect.
Why no mention in the talk? Nelson Ricardo 11:58, Jan 7, 2005 (UTC)
A satellite measured the tsunami in the Bay of Bengal. The wavelength was 500 to 800 km and the amplitude was 50 cm. http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6854 -phma 12:06, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
"scientists said it was plausible that the island escaped harm because of two protective features: the sturdy ring of coral reefs surrounding it and the extremely deep Chagos Trench just to the east, which may have disrupted some of the wave forms as they approached the island." [3] Sometimes last week, i entered a paragraph of how the ocean floor topology and the ocean banks affect the intensity of tsunami damage. It has since been removed and i don't feel it is appropriate to force it back without concession. Basically, the link above is a good summary of what i had entered. I also read somewhere (slashdot) that ocean floor that have mountains tend to stop tsunami before it hits the dry land. In my opinion, i felt like that was important information and should get somewhere in the article. The article is far better now. I do remember the first time i came across it, tsunami was described as surface wave, which was really way off
I will admit that I don't know much about tsunami, but given the definition: "it simply has a much smaller amplitude (wave heights) offshore, and a very long wavelength (often hundreds of kilometers long)", is Hokusai's Great Wave off Kanagawa really a tsunami? It seems more like "the sort of cresting waves that are formed by wind action upon the ocean (with which people are more familiar)". Maybe this is just hair-splitting, but it seems to me that there is the danger of confusing tsunami with any kind of "big wave" if we have this picture on the tsunami article page. CES 17:17, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I note that the caption does not call it a tsunami, and in fact
From yesterday's Observer newspaper (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,6903,1386027,00.html):
Good work, everybody! -- ChrisO 16:21, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Hello all, I'm very impressed with this article... but I have to ask: why is there only one reference to a SMH article about a specific event? This article must have had more information gathered from elsewhere. - Ta bu shi da yu 00:14, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Lived in Japan for ten years and "tsunamis" is not a word and irritating to boot. Tsunami are like sheep. I have 10 sheep and there were 10 tsunami. Revmachine21 05:21, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Japanese language rules are not relevant. The English plural is "tsunamis", just like the French plural for cameraman is cameramans. The borrowing language need not concern itself with the plural-formation rules of the source language. Historically, there was an exception for Latin because Latin was very widely taught in schools until the middle of the last century, but even this no longer holds in many cases. English borrows words so widely and so readily from other languages that it would be utterly impractical to remember special plural-formation rules on a case by case basis for every single word. -- Curps 05:29, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
You can't be serious. What's next? Should the English plural of "sheik" be "shuyukh" (sp?) because that is the plural in Arabic? Should every English speaker memorize dozens of exotic plurals on a case-by-case basis for every single word with a foreign-language etymology?
Words, once borrowed into English, use English plurals (Latin is an exception for historical reasons). Other languages do the same when they borrow words from English (eg, French cameramans). -- Curps 05:37, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The word has entered English and takes English plural. From dictionary.com: n. pl. tsu·na·mis. It's even got an adjective, tsunamic, which sure isn't Japanese. RickK 05:39, Jan 14, 2005 (UTC)
Some other words of Japanese origin take English plurals as well: "futons" and "tycoons". -- Curps 06:03, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I agree that "tsunamis" sounds wrong - but so do carryohkie (karaoke) and a lot of other loan words. What can we do about the horrible vernacular of the unwashed masses? Shouganai. As an example of a Japanese loan word that is not pluralised using the 's' affix in English, I suppose "sushi" is both singular and plural (though I also hear people say "sushis" - shudder). I think a case could be made for the plural of tsunami being either tsunami or tsunamis, but since I also live in Japan, I imagine my view of things is a bit skewed. -- Oarih 07:31, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Not in Japanese, it isn't (unless I've been speaking wrong all this time); sushi nigiri are discrete and very much countable. In Japan you say "I ate ten pieces of sushi" (well, or just as often "I ate five plates of sushi") much the same was one would say "I ate five cookies" in English. I think that tsunami should probably follow the same rule in English at typhoon, though, which would be to pluralise with an s, I guess. -- Oarih 07:58, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Once a word is borrowed into a foreign language, that language can abuse it however it wishes. And it's irrelevant if the result sounds barbaric to speakers of the original language. English words suffer the same fate when they leave home. The English word "sweat" has been borrowed into European French as sweat, but it means "sweatshirt" and it's pronounced "sweet" (!) Go tell them how silly they are, and they will just ignore you. -- Curps 08:55, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
It seems that just about everyone uses "tsunamis" as the plural:
The USGS itself uses "tsunamis", eg at [6] and [7] as does the NOAA at [8] and the Pacific Tsunami Warning Center at [9] and ITIC (International Tsunami Information Center) at [10].
Even Japanese writing in English seem to use "tsunamis", including Kenji Satake who made some of the wave animations [11] and the Japan Meteorological Agency (JMA) which is the government agency in charge of tsunami research: [12]
You can see more such results by looking in Google for "tsunamis" in .jp websites: Google search. -- Curps 09:49, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The major English-language Japan Times newspaper has a tsunami story today, and sure enough, they use "tsunamis" too: [13] -- Curps 09:49, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The plural of tsunami really is a matter of personal preference. Based on what I've read on this discussion page, it appears that tsunamis is more popular here. But I'd like to point out that tsunami as a plural form is not wrong. The Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary lists both "tsunamis" and "tsunami" as plural. Wang123 03:55, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I ask everyone not to use the invalid spelling "Tsunami".
"Tsunami" is the result of the invalid system of Romanisation of Japanese, called the Hepburn system. This system is an English-biased one which does not correspond to the phonemic structure of Japanese; every Japanese linguist rejects it.
Despite the unanimous rejection from Japanese linguists, this invalid system survived by the US Occupation forces since this system was supposedly easier for uneducated US soldiers. But, this system is not easier for English speakers, because it makes Japanese grammer (particularly conjugation) far more complicated.
The word must be written "tunami" (linguistically correct). Everton 23:10, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Who gives a flying fig newton what the word is in Japanese. Have you seen what that country does to words like baseball? Should we insist that the Japanese pronounce it as we do and not beisaboru or whatever awful twisting they give it? Nelson Ricardo 03:10, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)
Am I the only one that finds this usage weird? It's redundant. It's like saying "tidal wave wave". A tsunami is a wave, although an unusually deep wave when it is in the open ocean. Most of the time the phrase "surface wave of the tsunami" should probably be substituted for "tsunami wave". BlankVerse 17:24, 29 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Yes, "tsunami waves" is perfectly correct in English. The Japanese etymology is irrelevant. The word "tsunami" refers to the entire phenomenon, of which waves are a major part. This is no different than referring to "earthquake ground-shaking", as the USGS does among others [14].
This happens even with terms of purely English origin. We refer to the "HIV virus", not the "HI virus" or "The HIV". Similarly, PIN number and ATM machine.
-- Curps 02:28, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
You will notice that all examples you listed are acronyms; this rule only applies to acronyms.
The tsunami article has got a lot of vandals. Just to let you know. Trying to get rid of them.
--Relaxation 17:45, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)
See this edit: [15]. This anonymous editor wrote some interesting material, expressed in language more readily understood by laypersons, but I reverted because a lot of material was also summarily deleted without explanation. Can someone knowledgeable look into this and perhaps merge the anonymous editor's paragraphs into the article? -- Curps 10:50, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I appreciate the attempt to find a relevance for the Hokusai picture, but I'm not really convinced by the current caption. Do we have a source for the claim that "Many people have died because of the common misconception that tsunami behave like wind-driven waves or swells"? I would have thought that by the time your life is in danger it's too late for your conceptions of the wave's attributes to help or hinder you. Also the picture doesn't help us to understand what the waves are really like: I'd much rather see a picture (or more feasibly a diagram) of that. Mark1 03:09, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I added the caption because the Hokusai kept reappearing in the tsunami article, and I was always troubled by it. So it definitely needs an explanatory caption if it's going to be here. The source for my "many people died" statement is, in fact, an inference drawn from the large number of amateur videotapes I saw after the Dec 26th tsunami. A few of those videotapes have comments (not always in English) from the people filming them clearly indicating they are looking at the edge of a breaking wave, not a shelf of water coming at them. (It seemed to me that not a few of these amateur videotapes were taken by people who barely escaped with their own lives, and clearly thought they were above or beyond danger while they were filming and before the wave hit...again, their own misconceptions at work.) I read accounts from survivors who were calmly filming until they were overwhelmed and dropped their cameras. Many print articles confirm this notion that people didn't realize the danger they were in until too late. Sandover 17:12, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)
There is a common misconception that tsunamis behave like wind-driven waves or swells (with air behind them, as in this celebrated 19th century woodcut by Hokusai). In fact, a tsunami is better understood as a new and suddenly higher sea level, which manifests as a shelf or shelves of water. The leading edge of a tsunami superficially resembles a breaking wave but behaves differently: the rapid rise in sea level, combined with the weight and pressure of the ocean behind it, has far greater force. This confines the caption more strictly to the differences between the tsunami and the Hokusai wave. Mark1 05:44, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Good suggestion, thanks. I've changed the article accordingly —Sandover 17:16, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
If this is not a tsunami depiction, should we have this Hokusai image in the article at all?
I support its inclusion, with the caption, because it's a very well-known image which can actually help debunk a popular misconception about tsunami. There's a public service element to Wikipedia, and I think more people are likely to read (and remember) the caption and its warning than are likely to understand and heed the implications the long scientific explanation to the left. Sandover 21:36, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Is [16] an external link, or is it a reference? Seems like a reference. - 203.35.154.254 06:56, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
January 20, 1606/1607: along the coast of the Bristol Channel thousands of people were drowned, houses and villages swept away, farmland was inundated and flocks were destroyed by a flood that might have been a tsunami. The cause of the flood remains disputed, it is quite possible that it was caused by a combination of meteorological extremes and tidal peaks . [17]
I was here to fix the Korean interwiki link, but finding a good equivalent for Tsunami in Korean language is somewhat ambiguous. We have term "Hae-il"(해일; 海溢), which incorporates high waves caused by tropical cyclones as well as Tsunami. Is there a term in English for waves caused by hurricanes, typhhons, etc.? --Puzzlet Chung 00:48, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)
In korean, haeil includes both of tsunamis and storm surges. We distinguish between them by Jijin-haeil(Earthquake haeil; Tsunami) and Pokpung-haeil(Storm haeil; storm surge). Is there a word for both of them in english and japanese? -- ChongDae 12:56, 7 May 2005 (UTC)