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NOTE: I am undertaking significant edits to this page, reorganizing it into an actual history of the Roman Empire and a useful index page for Imperial topics on Wikipedia. The process will be gradual, since my time is limited, so I hope everyone can join in and help out. If anyone has any questions, please see the discussion at the bottom of this talk page.
Thanks all.
--Ddama 04:18, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I always thought Julius Ceasar was the first emperor?
Shouldn't the simple list of emperors be in a separate page like United Kingdom/Monarchs although we don't like subpages so maybe as a top level page like Roman Emperors.
Julius Caesar was dictator for life. I was adding the emperor list as stubs, not as a permanent list; but if there's already an accepted practice, go ahead and make a page for it - sounds sensible to me. MichaelTinkler
Sources I have checked say that Julius received the imperium in 46 BC but also that Augustus didn't call himself emperor either. I certainly have no idea on this myself.
Typically we call everyone up to Nero "The Principate" because the clearest TITLE the emperors used was "Princeps" or "First Citizen." Julius Caesar can be included or not, but Augustus is more usually treated as the first emperor by historians for administrative reasons - J.Caesar never got the kind of grip on the administration of the provinces that Augustus did. MichaelTinkler
thanks for the 'Roman Emperors' list, rmherman - I don't have it on this harddrive anywhere and didn't want to retype it! MichaelTinkler
Given the common impression of Julius Caesar as emperor, he should at least be mentioned -to refute or affirm in the article and something about the "princeps" probably also?. -rmhermen
Yep. I wasn't going to bother with the early part of the article (principate not being really my thing), but might as well.
Minor problem with the emperor list: the last emperor was Romulus Augustulus, not Romulus Augustus. Unfortunately the heading on the page for our man spells it the wrong way or else I'd just correct it. I was all ready to castigate some idiot until I realized I was the one who started the page with the typo :-) Sorry about that chief. Is there a way to fix it, or do I need an admin? -- PaulDrye
Well, don't feel guilty about it. We all call him Augustulus (including the copy of Boak & Sinnigen's A History of Rome I have here in the office), but that was always just a nickname. (-ulus in Latin meaning more or less wittle in the baby-talk kind of way in English)
Oh, and I don't know about the page name. -- MichaelTinkler
My vote on Julius Caesar's position is to make sure he stays Dictator -- but then explain what a Roman dictator was -- this clears up two misconceptions at once. Michael, can we add that most of the anti-Livia stuff (although it could be true, and makes for interesting reading) is Suetonius? -- JHK
This article could benefit a general introduction to the topic - it dives right in a bit fast for a lay reader. A simple paragraph at the beginning perhaps giving an overview of the romans (great article though!) - MB
I think it's quite interesting (and sad and a whole host of negative feelings) that people think the Roman Empire was characterized by the doings of the guy on top of the shit heap. The article is called the Roman Empire, right? Not Roman Emperors!
Where's the discussion of architecture, art, social mores, internal policy, religion, languages, philosophy, alliances, foreign and colonial policy? There's hardly any mention of those things (a couple paragraphs out of two dozen)!! No wonder most people have the impression the Roman Empire had a population of a few dozen people!
I think this blind adulation of the guy at the top of the shit heap would provide plenty of fodder for a psychoanalyst. Doubtless, the analysis would prove extremely unflattering. Shame on you all! -- Richard K (someone who couldn't care less who murdered whom and who fucked whom when in order to be able to murder others)
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I have the impression that Gaius Julius Caesar is not regarded as an Emperor becuse his authority as Dictator was based on the Republican Constitution (albeit somewhat perverted to his particular needs). Authors such as Robert Syme have shown that it was Octavian (the future Augustus) who launched the revolution that overthrew the Republic. He subsequently based his own authority on the loyalty of the legions, thinly disguised with Republican titles for his various powers. So I'd also say leave J. Caesar as Dictator rather than Emperor.
It was my understanding that the Roman Emperors didn't call themselves Emperor because the word didn't exist then. I thought it came about because each Emperor took the title "Imperator". And that the original meaning of Imperator was that a successful General would be hailed "Imperator" by his legions. By the late Republic it was a kind of way to tell your General that you'd back him in a Civil War. But since Augustus changed things to have the legions swear loyalty to him alone it was natural for subsequent recipients of the Legions' oaths to also use the title Imperator even when they had no triumphs to their names. I guess that the Barbarians pronounced it wrong and came up with "Emperor". Am I making sence?
I noticed that the date of death of Gauis and Lucius Caesar was shown as 2 BC in the Roman Empire entry. Actually Lucius Caesar died in 2AD and his brother Gaius died in 4 AD but I haven't got bold enough to fix it. As a matter of completeness Drussus (Tiberius' brother) died in 9 BC; Tiberius returned to Rome in 2 AD but this was more through the intersession of Livia rather than him being sent for by Augustus; he was kept out of all public life until Gaius died in 4AD, and it was only then that he returned to public life and was adopted by Augustus.
Thanks, Neil Whyman
If we're still allowed to talk about doings of those insignificant emperors ;-), a few little details might be worth clearing up here. As it stands, the article makes it seem that Tiberius chose to divorce his wife, but I thought Augustus ordered him quite against his wishes. And Caligula's seashell incident may have been a mistranslation of an order that was more reasonable in the original Latin (but I can't remember what it was).
Alex Clark
Julius Caesar was actually offered the crown a few times but he always turned it down (he was in a bit of a no-win situation with honours - he accepted them and people thought he was getting above himself. He didn't accept them and people claimed he was getting above himself because he obviously thought he knew better than the Senate). One of the excuses for his murder was the fear that he would accept and establish a monarchy. The Romans had a few issues with the concept of kings/emperors which is one of the reason the early Emperors went with the Princeps title. They were 'first among many' rather than 'rulers' which made it all O.K. Obviously as the public got used to the concept and the Emperors got more powerful they dropped the spin ;-) Imperator was a military title that was given to a sucessful general by his men. In that context Julius Caesar *was* an Imperator because he had been awarded the title however that is totally distinct from him being an Emperor - which he wasn't. Some Emperors like Octavian/Augustus actually got the title legitimately as well. It was later claimed by various Emperors probably on the basis that it wouldn't do to have a general with an honour that the Emperor didn't have and since Rome was so focused on the importance of manly virtues and the Emperor as military commander it stuck.
Faith Lawrence
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I would like to undertake a comprehensive rewrite of this page to actually deal with the subject of the Roman Empire in an encyclopedic fashion, including art, architecture, religion, the economy, the family, life, law and culture. I realize that I am new here and I don't want to step on anybody's toes.
The Roman Empire is the linchpin of European and Middle Eastern history, of Jewish, Christian and Muslim thought, and of cultural ideals that influence the lives of everyone reading this, whether they know it or not. This article must therefore be a showpiece for the entire Wikipedia project.
Currently, both the Roman Republic and the Byzantine Empire pages are in better shape than this one. I think the History of Russia series sets an example to aspire to in terms of integration and comprehensiveness. There should be links from this page to virtually every topic in the Roman article index.
Has anyone else out there had thoughts like this? Ddama (05:13, Mar 11, 2004)
Though I'm not involved, is there really nothing the public may see in the following "editorial" note that was recently deleted?
There is material here worth while salvaging rather than suppressing, IMHO. Wetman 02:26, 7 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I was the one who wrote it. Who deleted it, why, and what gave them said right to do so? I am only trying to explain what noted historians of Rome like have to say on the subject. In almost every magazine article or editorial Nero is mentioned in, some outspoken person on the subject always defends him to a certain extent (Especially Dr. Wallace-Hadrill of the British School at Rome). I read Anthony R. Birley's biography on Hadrian, and the senate did damn his memory posthumously, and his image was recovered by Antoninus Pius. I delivered only information that was factual or if not factual cannot be disproven with other facts. So, other than having a bad opinion, why was it deleted? I shall indeed salvage the information and try again.
I absolutely agree, I will ask him. I do also agree with your comment on adding it to the Roman Emperor page, and will see what I can do.
Late Antiquity in the West
I wrote the "From Roman to Byzantine in the East" and made a beginning on "Late Antiquity in the West". Does anyone have any comments on my work. It is one of my more serious contributions. User:Magraggae 19:34, 13 Jul 2004 (GMT+1)
I would like to see some more context on the 'fall' of the Roman Empire. Perhaps this would be better presented as a separate page.
The Fall of Rome Ian Wheeler “The city that once ruled the universe, is now itself conquered.” quoted a Roman monk and poet as he watched his city starve. They were surrounded by a Gothic army in 476 AD and could not escape. How could such a glorious civilization have such a fall as the Roman Empire? Several reasons in my mind contribute to the historical fall. A few that I will discuss are: the rise of Christianity; the hiring of mercenaries; and the Huns. There is no such thing as ruling all of Europe, only occupying.
Not only were the armies to spread out, but they also consisted of peaceful gothic tribesmen and mercenaries. The Goths who were allowed to come into the empire, unfortunately, were allowed to join the military. They were not nearly as disciplined as the famous, true, Roman legions. They also respected the generals little, and respected Rome even less. Mercenaries basically respected only their generals and cared nothing for Rome itself, much less other generals. Generals often fought each other over the Roman throne.
The map looks to be in a combination of German and Latin.
Might I propose that the sections in German be modified to match the Latin of the rest of the map? --Jeff Anonymous 18:56, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I thought this article could use a timeline. So here i whipped up something which might be used as a base for a more refined version. The Caesar/Augustus differentiation does probably not make a lot of sense. Ideas how to make the timeline more compact? --Dschwen 10:27, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
As far as I know, the Julii part of the Julio-Claudians was Augustus (ie. Octavian) and the Claudii part was his wife Livia(the mother of Tiberius, who is actually not a Julio-Claudian, just a Claudian). I am adding this now. --Masamax 08:56, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I have a question in relation to the government-sanctioned persecution of religion prior to the Edict of Milan and Emperor Constantine (and his successors).
If this violence was precipitated by a majority against a minority of religious practitioners, could the outbursts of violence be considered pogroms? If so, when did these pogroms occur?
An anon user has gone through and replaced (almost?) all year links from the BC to BCE and AD to CE. In most cases they have inlcuded this in the link (60 BCE) which isn't an article. I was tempted to revert the edits, but wondered whether just moving the CE or BCE outside of the link would be better (I don't have time for that at the moment) and so I've left it for now. Do we have a policy on which style to use? Thryduulf
I left a note at Talk:Roman Emperor, but this page seems considerably more active so I think more of the interested parties might see this here than over there.
Roman Emperor is really long. Really long. 67kb, which is even longer than here & over twice the recommended limit of 32kb. I'd like to split it up; at the article's talk page I've proposed four new articles for its body to be divided between. But I wanted to hear everyone's thoughts first. Binabik80 20:16, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)
As a response to Binabik80 (see above): shouldn't we combine splitting up Roman Emperor with splitting up the article on the Roman Empire? Both articles could be split and merged into, for example:
As such they could form a 'History of the Roman Empire'-series, with History of the Roman Empire as a condensed version of the present Roman Empire-article. The article Roman Empire could then become a cornerstone article, with a balance between history, culture, language, architecture, commerce, etcetera. The article Roman Emperor could become an article on the institute of Emperor and its evolution instead of an extended list of Roman emperors. What dou you all think?--Hippalus 09:36, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)
When is this going to continue? I'd genuinely like to see this page reorganized so it is no longer merely a history article. I'd be glad to help. --Masamax 08:41, 22 May 2005 (UTC)
I really don't agree with some aspects of the descriptions of the Flavian dynasty. In particular, the lines "Another example of his monarchical tendencies was his insistence that his sons Titus and Domitian would succeed him; the imperial power was not seen as hereditary at this point." bother me, since this was standard practice (and indeed the Emperor Claudius was appointed by the Praetorian Guard for this very reason! --Masamax 10:45, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure how to turn this into a template, and it probably needs some editing as well. However, I think we should refine and use this to classify and standardize all the subsequent province pages it links too, and create the ones that don't yet exist. --Christopher 20:39, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
Roman Provinces Circa 120 AD | |
---|---|
Achaea | Aegyptus Province | Africa Proconsularis | Arabia Petraea | Armenia | Armenia Inferior | Asia | Assyria | Bithynia | Britannia | Cappadocia | Cilicia | Commagene | Corsica and Sardinia | Cyprus | Cyrenaica | Dacia | Dalmatia | Epirus | Galatia | Gallia Alpes Cottiae | Gallia Alpes Maritimae | Gallia Alpes Penninae | Gallia Aquitania | Belgica | Gallia Lugdunensis | Gallia Narbonensis | Germania Inferior | Germania Superior | Hispania Baetica | Hispania Baleares | Hispania Lusitania | Hispania Tarraconesis | Italia | Judaea (Palaestina) | Langobardi/Cherusci/Sugambri | Lycaonia | Lycia | Macedonia | Mauretania | Mesopotamia | Moesia | Noricum | Numidia | Osroene | Pamphylia | Pannonia | Pisidia | Pontus | Rhaetia | Sicilia | Sophene | Syria | Thracia |
I think this is a nice map that we can use as the basis for identifying the locations of Roman Provinces. Most of the subsequent province pages are without maps and not standardized to a certain format. --Christopher 20:39, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)