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I am curious about the new name. I've always seen it as two words and thought that rig defined which veda it was. Danny
In Sanskrit, Rigveda is never written as two different words Rig and veda. The names such as Samaveda, Atharvaveda, Yajurveda are each single words.
The article seemed biased specially when it mentions Aryan Invasion Theory which is highly debated Ankit Jain 03:27, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
the image doesn't show "The Rig Veda", it shows just a printed page with two verses plus Sayana's commentary. There is no reason to show that rather than the actual text, and then on Purusha sukta or something; the same goes for the creation hymn, we can hardly begin showing the full text of individual hymns here. dab (ᛏ) 07:04, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
"The Orion" by Tilak is a much more important book on Vedic topics. To speak of "The Arctic Home" by Tilak is to remain fixated on Newton's Alchemy and forget his physics. MarcAurel 04:16, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Why are the texts linked to in the article different? I mean, sacred-text's and intratext's ones.
Examples:
sacred-text's edition of Book 6 has 75 hymns, and intratext's has 84. And so on.
Hymn 54 of Book 6 is different: http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rvsan/rv06054.htm vs. http://www.intratext.com/IXT/SAN0010/_PE9.HTM
I have also sent an email to intratext asking this question. --Imz 01:06, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
How old is Rigveda is horribly mistaken. Most of the estimates by modern historians are based on contemplation. True logical conclusion can be seen in the below mentioned URL.
Following are the quotes from http://www.mantra.com/newsplus/aitmyth.html#A09 "Rig Veda verses belie the old chronology (VI.51.14-15 mentions the winter solstice occurs when the sun rises in Revati nakshatra, only possible at 6,000bce, long before the alleged invasion.) Carbon dating confirms horses in Gujarat at 2,400bce, contradicting old model claim Aryans must have brought them. NASA satellite photos prove Sarasvati River basin is real, not a myth. Fire altars excavated at Kali Bangan in Rajasthan support existence of Rig Veda culture at 2,700 bce. Kunal, a new site in Haryana, shows use of writing and silver craft in pre-Harappan India, 6-7,000bce."
Please also see the chapter on "Myth of the Aryan invasion of India by David Frawley" at http://www.mantra.com/newsplus/aitmyth.html#A15
Regards, Prashant (s/w Engg in MNC)
Just got curious if it's not also the oldest text in any Indo-European language? If not, which one is? deeptrivia (talk) 04:23, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
The Gathas (sermons of Zarathrustra) are likely older. The reason being that the Gathas contain a much wider, much older I-Ir lexicon than the Rk, which already has numerous borrowings from Dravidian (not a great deal though). Kuiper wrote a few articles about this which I will cite when I can pull them out from my boxes. The Gathas are virtually "pure" Indo-Iranian, by contrast, though arguably, this could be due to deliberate redaction in the highly nationalistic Sassanian period when few surviving texts of the Avesta were compiled. The oldest firmly dated IE text is the Mitanni scroll which contains the names of a few I-Ir deities; I believe that is 1236 BCE, but I can't find the reference right now.--Almijisti 07:48, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I removed some nonsense (such as "new evidence turning up all the time", and by edit conflict also reverted the addition of a list of ancient texts. This is offtopic here, go to Ancient literature (where we are linking to from this article at the appropriate location). dab (ᛏ) 20:21, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I could agree that the place for the detail you removed does not need to be here, and I updated Ancient literature. However, the dating claims are still not documented, and the paragraphs point is hardly nuetral. The unspoken assumptions appear to be:
I am happy to see the RigVeda represented as the oldest of all literatures, if that is what it is. I humbly (not sarcasticaly) ask for objective peer reviewed evidence before being told that is the case. If there are those whose religious or nationalistic sensibilities are offended by this, consider another approach: if the RigVeda really is the "truth", does it matter if it is the oldest, the source, or adequately supported archaeologically? If so, we need the objective citations. If not, we need verifiable claims to form an objective opinion. Thank you for the attention to this. mamgeorge 20:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Again, thanks for the checks; I appreciate you dedication. I have some questions, if you can bear them; they seem appropriate to the topic. I do not have a quick way of verifying these details; do you?:
Linguistically speaking the Gathas are arguably at least as old, perhaps much older than the RV, according to research by Boyce, Haug, Kellens, etc.--all reputable Iranicists. It is, of course, even more difficult to attempt dating of any of the Avesta, owing to the centuries of privations following Alexander's victory over the Achaemenids and the deliberately artificial compilations attempted under the Sassanids. That said, it is far from settled in the I-Ir scholastic world that the RV is older than the Gathas or vice versa. It's difficult to say, really, because it is likely that the dialect of the RV isn't even the same as later Vedic Skt and may be closer to that of the Gathas than the rest of the Samhitas. One mustn't overlook the fact that the Gathas are almost devoid of non-I-Ir words, while the RV has numerous Dravidian and Munda borrowings (see Kuiper 1991; Aalto 1971). This is ambiguous, admittedly, but it could point to an earlier redaction than the RV; that is, maybe Zarathustra's audience had not yet fully split into Iranian and Indic worlds (perhaps significantly, the sermons themselves depict a society that was on the verge of a terrific collapse).
At any rate, there are portions of RV x that may even predate ii-ix, particularly the akhyana hymns, which perhaps were remnants of a very ancient epic or cosmogony. I believe that establishing a terminus a quo for the RV is next to impossible; for one thing, only one of the five known rescensions exists. As for the other samhitas, the Samaveda has several hymns that do not appear in the Sakalya recension and may be remnants of the other rescensions or, perhaps, apocrypha. The Sakalya rescension was not compiled into final form until the 6th or 5th centuries (this date is, at least relatively well accepted even according to indigenous tradition, ascribing the work to the sage Vyasa). Even the "serious" literature on the subject of RV dating is about 10% evidence and 90% conjecture; nearly all of it that derives from a lingustic analysis is devoid of any real understanding of the archaeology and most archaeologists have only cursory knowledge of the texts (Rau was a notable exception). Muller originally thought 1200 BCE then he revised this downward to 1500 later in his life; Haug was convinced that it was at least 2400 BCE (Haug was perhaps the greatest of the early Indo-Iranicists), and Kaegi thought it was even earlier. The idea some have that 19th Century Europeans had any consensus on or need for a late chronology for the Vedic literature is simply false. I have elsewhere pointed out the circular reasoning that goes on in most of Vedic dating articles. The situation is not comparable to any other field of ancient studies, owing to the singular importance of I-Ir research to the entire field of historical linguistics and IE linguistics in particular. It's unlikely to resolve in my lifetime. On top of all the traditional academic slowness, Vedic dating has in recent years become one of the most politicized topics in all of humanities research.--Almijisti 07:21, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Please refer to the following paragraph, 'Kazanas (2000) in a polemic .. diametral opposition to views in mainstream historical linguistics, and supports the controversial Out of India theory,.. ' Let me point out that 'from within India' theory is even more controversial. Aupmanyav 15:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
The Rigveda (Sanskrit: ऋग्वेद ṛgveda
The Rigveda (Sanskrit: ऋग्वेद ṛgveda
The Rigveda (Sanskrit: ऋग्वेद ṛgveda
The Rigveda (Sanskrit: ऋग्वेद ṛgveda
this is nonsense. Practically every article on Sanskrit terms on Wikipedia gives a brief translation, and an analysis of the components if the term is a compound. See Yajurveda, Ashvamedha, or any other article you care to look at. And no, we will not dumb down articles towards your image of a "quick surfer average Joe", we have simple: for that sort of approach. dab (𒁳) 08:37, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Please have a look at Nylon, Human, Aircraft and electricity, all of which either provide a separate mention on the etymology of the same in a section dedicated to explaining the same, or a very short and brief one (as in the electricity article).
Ashvamedha, and Yajurveda similarly need to be cleaned-up from this imagined stretch of yours that "we will not dumb down articles". Excuse me, this is a publicly viewable, highly accessible encyclopaedia meant for all. Thus, the more serious researcher would look at the tatpurusha compound blabber down in the history or etymology section, whereas the high-school student doing an assignment would be more than content with the info provided in the introduction. Indian_Air_Force.
Devanagiri scripts are not "technical terms". They are a translation and people understand that. You know the crux of my logic DBachmann, but are skillfully skirting the issue by bringing in the similar but unconvincing argument of Devanagiri scripts into the discussion. The tactic of "if this, so why not this" does not apply here. Devanagiri can remain, but tatpurusha compound etc does not. Indian_Air_Force(IAF)
It is good that we are updating the editions. For editions that I cannot verify directly I am referring to Wendy Doniger's reiew which appears in her book cited in the article. I notice that some of the dates and titling she gives differ from those in the article. If any of the dates or edition details differ from what others may know, could you please add additional citations rather than removing what I give to Doniger? If we add multiple variants we can reconcile any differences over the next week. Buddhipriya 19:02, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
The first hymns of Rgveda were composed in Southern Afghanistan according to Dr Rajesh Kochar (The Vedic People, Orient Longman, 2000). His arguments based on relationship of Vedic Sanskrit with Avestan language, location of Ephedra plants (Soma), names of the rivers etc were very logical. As Indo-Aryans gradually movesd east towards Punjab bulk of Vedas were composed in that region.Kumarrao 14:27, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
A few months ago a change to History of mathematics asserted that this work was relevant to the history, yet there is no mention of it on this article. Is there some truth to the anons edit? John Vandenberg 13:59, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
In one of his ingenious if extravagant articles, Brunnhofer, writing to prove that the Rig-Veda was composed before the Aryans entered India, lays stress on the fact that the family-name of one of the Vedic seers means 'dog'; whence, as our author conclues, the poet must have been a 'dog-revering Iranian.'[1]
This statement surely implies that there is something unusual in finding 'dog' as a man's name in the Rig-Veda, and shows that the author thinks the dog to have been despised in the Vedic period. But, in point of fact, in the Rig-Veda we find 'Dog's Tail' as a proper name, and in the Brahmanic period we learn that a good Brahman gave this canine name in three different forms to his three sons, so that Çunaḥpuccha, Çunaḥçepa and Çunolāńgūla (Ait. Br. vii. 15) all rise as witnesses against Brunnhofer; while later still, withal in the most Brahmanic period, we find Dog's Ear, Çunaskarṇa, handed down as a respectable name. Āçvalāyana's teacher was a Çāunaka. Even were the animal despised, the name, then, was unobjectionable; as actually happens in the parallel case of the jackal, which is found as a proper name, although the beast was contemptible. Brunnhofer, to be sure, relegates all jackal-names, for the same reason, to the Turanians; but this is rather absurd, in view of the fact that as late as the grammatical period we have a scholar called Jackal-son. Like Çunaka, Çāunaka, we find Kroṭuka, Krāuṣṭuki, both the name and the patronymic (kroṣṭar, common and proper name), and both good Hindu names.
But it is the implication that the dog was a despicable beast in the eyes of the Vedic Aryans that the strongest exception may
- ^ Iran und Turan, p. 152: "Als Sohn eines vom Hunde benannten Mannes (Çunaka) kann der Stammvater des Verfasses des II, Maṇḍala nur als Iranier aufgefasst werden, weil...der Hund bei den brahmanischen Sanskrit-Ariern ein verachtetes Thier war, nach welchem sich Niemand benannt haben würde." Compare also ib., p. 165: "Çunaka...ein Name, der schlechterdings, bei der grossen Verachtung des Hundes unter den Brahmanen, nur ein hundeverehrender Iranier tragen konnte."
Rather than just revert each other, could we please have discussion on this issue on the talk page? The back and forth edit wars are unproductive: [1]. It seems that this is another of the debates about dating? Please, can we try to get the discussion about which sources are to be used, and then focus on what those sources actually say? Buddhipriya 00:37, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
this is splitting hairs, isn't it? "composed" is the verb commonly used, but there is really nothing attached to it. It is used because "written" is incorrect, since the hymns were committed to memory, not written down, in the early days. "Recorded" also implies some sort of material "record". There was a "mental record" of the text, of course, but that doesn't really sit comfortably with English usage (OED considers this usage obsolete, and cites as its last occurrence a date of 1656). This discussion is a red herring. The earliest bits date to maybe 1500-1200 BC, which is expressed by saying they were composed back then, amazingly, if you can believe it, without any evil colonialist agenda to slight Hindus. Bakaman's citation of a fragment of a paper discussing Vedic s-aorists is ludicrous (evidently; trust this user will turn a simple matter of stylistics into a vitriolic 'conflict') . dab (𒁳) 08:45, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
4000 BC and similar dates (6000 BC...) are patently out of the picture and are paraded in political and sectarian contexts, completely outside anything resembling academic integrity. I tried to discuss this phenomenon under the title of "Hindutva and pseudoscience", but proponents managed to get this deleted (by very dubious incidencts, policy-wise) and prefer to keep their motivations in the dark. This is not an honest debate. This article can mention crackpot dates in the Neolithic, but will clearly mark them as the naive or chauvinist exploits they are. There is really no need to keep rehashing this. dab (𒁳) 09:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
in an introductory lecture on the origin of the Vedas to Europeans in 1865, the German Indologist Max Muller said, "In no country, I believe, has the theory of revelation been so minutely elaborated as in India. The name for revelation in Sanskrit is Sruti, which means hearing; and this title distinguished the Vedic hymns and, at a later time, the Brahmanas also, from all other works, which however sacred and authoritative to the Hindu mind, are admitted to have been composed by human authors. The Laws of Manu, for instance, are not revelation; they are not Sruti, but only Smriti, which means recollection of tradition. If these laws or any other work of authority can be proved on any point to be at variance with a single passage of the Veda, their authority is at once overruled. According to the orthodox views of Indian theologians, not a single line of the Veda was the work of human authors. The whole Veda is in some way or the other the work of the Deity; and even those who saw it were not supposed to be ordinary mortals, but beings raised above the level of common humanity, and less liable therefore to error in the reception of revealed truth. The views entertained by the orthodox theologians of India are far more minute and elaborate than those of the most extreme advocates of verbal inspiration in Europe. The human element, called paurusheyatva in Sanskrit, is driven out of every corner or hiding place, and as the Veda is held to have existed in the mind of the Deity before the beginning of time..." For quotation see: "Chips from a German Workshop" by Max Muller, Oxford University Press, 1867 - Chapter 1: "Lecture on the Vedas or the Sacred Books of the Brahmans, Delivered at Leeds, 1865", pages 17-18.
Hulagu 00:10, 28 June 2007 (UTC)Hulagu
Discussion moved to the Hinduism notice board.Bakaman 23:31, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
This recent set of changes has removed key information and sources (yes I know about the dating section, it depended on sources that were in the intro). Besides this loss of key sources, I feel that it is important to mention the dating information in the introduction, as the age of this work is of more global importance than its religious importance to some. It's approach 2am here so I cant tackle this right now. John Vandenberg 15:47, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
nonsense. the dating is crucial, and I daresay it isn't only the infidel Westerners that keep harping on how very ancient the Vedas are. If you expand this article with so much good information that a separate Dating of the Rigveda (paralleling Dating of the Bible) becomes an option, that's a wholly different issue. dab (𒁳) 21:00, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I am here quoting from a Wiki article 'Indian Astronomy' :
The article 'Rgveda says :
Jacobi should be mentioned in this passage, because Jacobi was the first to mention this date and provided some argument as well, while Balakrishnan has no argument and yet his view is cited, just because he has managed to put it on a website ! -Vinay Jha Vinay Jha 15:43, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I have no faith in Jacobi's or Tilak's or Max Müller's or modern Shankarāchāryas' methods of dating because these are all based on narrow datasets which are mostly interpreted rather subjectively, but what you have expressed above is also 'modern lunacy' or 'modern political ideology' or 'modern scientific mysticism'. I wasted 12 years on learning and dating the Rgveda, esp. upon Karl Brugmann's neogrammar 'Gründriss der...", and I decided to keep away from this controversy, because I found that objective method requires a lifelong devotion which no one was ready to afford. I have enough proofs against all existing views about this dating problem, but I also know that it will be a wastage of time to go into it : everybody has a preconceived set of ideas. TIME will debunk everyone; let us wait and watch and not be a party to this futile debate. -Vinay Jha 16:52, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
You have done well to trim the boring grammatical detail at the beginning of this article which must have repulsed most of general readers, as user:IAF had earlier remarked. I had a purpose in expanding this boring introduction which has been missed by you : the term 'ṛgveda' ऋग्वेद is not a compound of ṛik+veda as this article wrongly informs , but of ṛg+veda (cf. sanskrit-English Dictionary of Monier-Williams ).
Moreover ṛk- or ṛg- are not separable forms which could form a tatpurusha sāmasa, but are sandhi forms of 'ṛch-' ; hence ṛgveda is a tatpurusha samāsa of ṛch+veda.The form 'ṛch-' becomes ṛk- when followed by a non-vocalised syllable, and becomes ṛg- when followed by a vocalised syllable such as 've-' in this case.
The verb 'ṛch' is the root of 'archanā' which means prayer ; ṛcā is a special form of archanā, distinguished by special rules of prununciation laid down in Ṛk-prātishākhya. If these rules are not followed and Ṛgvedic hymns are pronounced as normal sanskrit, the ṛchās will not be called ṛchās but archanā. Many mantras are common to different Vedas, with no difference in spelling, but in ṛgveda a mantra is called ṛcā and in Yajurveda the same mantra will be called a yajus and in Sāmaveda that very mantra will become a sāman. 'Mantra' is the common term for all these. 'Mantra', moreover, may be used in non-Vedic contexts too.
Such boring details are unsuitable at the beginning, but ought to be put somewhere either in this article or in some linked article, because most people do not have a proper understanding of these definitions. There is no need to cite additional authorities because whatever I have mentioned is explicitly mentioned by Sir Monier-Williams in SED. -Vinay Jha 16:17, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
This is all perfectly true, but this article isn't the place to discuss Sanskrit grammar. Consider contributing to sandhi or Sanskrit grammar. --dab (𒁳) 09:14, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
You say "this article isn't the place to discuss Sanskrit grammar" but why you insist on giving a wrong etymology of Rgveda ? Either remove it totally or give a correct etymology : Rg+veda (or Rch+veda, because Rg- is merely a sandhi form of the verb Rch ; Rk+veda is nonsense. I refrain from editing your errors . -Vinay Jha 03:27, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Instead of Western dating of an Indian text which don't consider Indian Hindu view , I modified so as to accomodate both sided dating, but Dab is deleting it for which he is being criticized even by other admins. Dab stop being Supremist in this controversial subject. I am being neutral to accomodate western & Indian dating. And, as an admin I expect the same from you. Please note that we are dealing with Indian subject , so Indian view also require addition in the same way you are trying to impose western dating. WIN 12:06, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Academic estimates are solely based on AIT which itself is a linguistic theory and not a fact. AIT is either totally opposed or considered as highly dubious by archeeologists and totally not favoured by anthropologists. When solid science is debunking or not relying on it then a theory based on linguistic sky palace is on a shaky ground. So, your assertion is improper.
Troy was also a popular cultural myth. But, it's found on Turkey now. So, popular cultural beliefs are on more solid ground than some theory mainly fabricated by linguist on shaky parameters & with one way thinking. And, hence I oppose addition of only western dating in Intro ( based on a theory ) but sounding like a fact. WIN 08:24, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
For your kind of thinking I sincerely recommend to read book on Indian Mathematics http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac.uk/history/Projects/Pearce/index.html . If you can understand Mathematics then you may appreciate inventions of Indians and it's total discredit in Western Acedamics. So, what your western acedamics are upto should be clear as same thing is done for language by linguists and the fabricated Aryan Invasion theory. So, stop being hypocrate & eurocentric. WIN 11:18, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
stop trolling, present academic sources and seek consensus for your revision. I would never deny the great contribution of Indian mathematics. But what sort of argument is "India has great mathematicians, therefore my changes to the Rigveda article must be correct"? That's not even a fallacy, it's just idle rambling. dab (𒁳) 11:29, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
It's given not for your rediculous & wrong deduction but to point out your Eurocentric nature in the subject in tune with Western historians on mathematics. Eurocentric notion has produced your ramblings. WIN 12:08, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Do anyone have sources for some aryan nomads of central asia invading / migrating India & converting language of almost all of vast Indian subcontinent. Stop being HYPOCRATE as usual. My only point is that when western dating of RigVeda is based on PURE theory ( which you are trying to assert like a fact ) is mentioned in Intro , then RigVeda 's traditional dating where it was composed i.e. India , should be placed in Intro. I oppose your rediculous assertion of keeping only western dating. WIN 12:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
The present dating of Rgveda is based upon linguistic ideas of 19th century, but many discoveries of 20th century have made that approach totally untenable. It is wrong to hide the shortcomings in this conventional dating. I oppose DAB's approach of dubbing all opponents of this dating (cir. 1500 BCE) as obscurantists &c. If DAB &c do not create a mess, I would like to point out the defects in this dating with the help of reliable sources. Wiki editors should present both sides of a controversy and it is wrong to brush aside any one side without discussing it in a dictatorial manner. - Vinay Jha 03:36, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
In linguistics, glottochronology in the only reliable method for absolute dating of ancient texts, which is not applicable in this case because we have no definite records for different periods of IE prehistory. Hence, on account of linguistic affinities of the Rgveda with other IE languages, the average date of the bulk of RV was decided to be around 1200 BCE because the pastoral culture of Rgveda could be at par with a similar Greek culture only around this date which was hinted by Homeric poems. Max Müller stressed that this dating was proven on the basis of linguistics and phililogy, while the greatest Indo-Europeanist Karl Brugmann cited a historian A. Kaegi for this dating instead of providing any linguistic argument (vol-1,ch-1, Grundriss der ..., translated by Wright : 'A Comparative Grammar of Indo-European Languages", reprinted by Chowkhamba in 5 volumes, Varanasi). In the absence of better alternatives, this date of Rgveda was accepted by the majority. But in 1952, Michel Ventris deciphered Linear-B which proved that Mycenaean Greeks enjoyed urban civilisation upto "1450 BC" (Cf. Winfred P. Lehmann, p. 28-29 in Historical Linguistics: An Introduction, Oxford & IBH Publishing Co., 66 Janpath, New Delhi, Reprint 1976, original print in 1962). Hence, the pastoral predecessors of these Greeks must have existed around 2000 BCE (± few centuries). But around this date there were Harappans in the Indus Valley. Therefore, scientific reason asked that Rgveda ought to be placed well before the advent of an urban civilisation in the Indus Valley. This is unpalatable to those who do not want to accept that Rgveda could have preceded Greeks by such a huge gap. Hence, a large number of academics are neglecting the discoveries of M.Ventris and still stick to Max Müller's dating. Internal evidences from Vedic texts are also neglected. For instance, there is no linguistic evidence which can put Rgveda before Yajurveda or Sāmveda. Sāmveda has most of its mantras common with Rgveda. Moreover, all the Vedas mention each other. If we take Rgveda only, it does not mention any town, village or state of the Indus region, but there are hymns in the praise of states in eastern and middle Gangetic valley : Svarājya in first Mandala by Gotama Rahugana, who is mentioned by Shatpath Brāhmana to be the chief priest of first king of Videha (in North Bihar). Hence, the Rgvedic hymns by Gotama Rahugana in praise of Svarājya are certainly in praise of Videha State, but many experts say that Videha was Aryanised during the age of Shatpath Brāhamana and forget the evidence of Rgveda. Similarly, hymns in 10th Mandala are composed by the King of Kāshi 'Pratardana'. It shows that Videha (Mithilā) and Kāshi were territorial states during Rgvedic times. But the irrefutable internal evidences of Rgveda are neglected because these facts do not fit into the Aryan Invasion/Migration Theory. No ancient text can prove seven major rivers in West India even if Sarasvati is included, but Mahabharata explicitly mention that the Sapta-Sindhu flowed to the East and the number of major Himalayan rivers in the Gangetic Valley is indeed seven includinf Sarasvati. Astronomical evidences are dubbed as 'debunked' not fit for discussion ! Archaeologists have failed to find any proof of a massive foreign invasion, hence now the theory of slow migration is being proposed. But one question remains unanswered : the Rgvedic peoples were capable of memorising all the Vedas with their archaic pronunciation for millenia without committing these texts to writing, but they forgot their foreign origin just after entering into India ! These problems become clear when one examines the inner linguistic mechanisms of Indo-Europeanists through which dating of Veda was deduced, for which I want the cooperation of neutral editors . Some persons have no interest in getting to the truth. Like the majority of humans, they cite the 'mainstream' as if this 'mainstream' has appointed them as a spokesman on Wiki , forgetting that in feilds pertaining to intellect, vote and crowd mentality is the last thing one ought to invoke. I have devoted 12 years on Rgvediv linguistics and I can take on the likes of Witzels and DABs on their own grounds, but they will not debate and take a recourse to either dubbing me as an obscurantist or a lunatic not fit for debate (such a language has been by DAB for others in this page), because they lack substance to support their arguments and talk of votes. Whatever evidences I have cited above are not my OR or POV but are solid facts from the books of mainstream linguists. Instead of presenting all facts and views in a balanced and neutral manner, some editors are misusing their administrative powers in a wrong way. Dating the Rgveda is a heated issue and a handful of editors cannot impose their POV upon the rest. Linguistics has no proof of the dating which this article is presently giving, it is a false propaganda of certain people in the name of linguistics going on for two centuries.
See the last lines under Wrong Etymology of Rgveda in Talk:Rgveda; here again DAB has refused to either respond or rectify his error. Still, he is giving a wrong etymology and yet poses as a great grammarian and gives lessons to other users. DAB can become a great editor and more than that if he learns some patience and neutrality, which I believe are the last things he will ever learn. -Vinay Jha 16:35, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
REPLY by Vinay Jha: I am happy that DAB has rectified the wrong etymology of 'Rgveda', but I was driven to frustration earlier on account of his unwillingness to do so in spite of my repeated requests, and that is why I used some harsh words above, which otherwise I never would have used. DAB is an obstinate but inwardly a good person. Thanks to him for this correction. Generally he makes very few errors, but if he makes one he sticks to it. Forgive me if I sound harsh, my intent is improvement.
As for my statement "I can take on the likes of Witzels and DABs on their own ground", it was made on account of DAB's unwillingness to rectify the etymology of 'Rgveda'; I was frustrated with him. Actually, I can never take on DAB on his own ground, because I do not know what his ground is (nor he does mine, because he wrongly believes that I worked on Sanskrit for 12 years, I devoted 12 years to modern linguistics including the great grammatical compendiums of 19th century stalwarts, with special reference to Rgveda; before that,in university I studied science, history and then topped in English literature). I cannot take on Witzel as well, because Witzel will never give me such a chance (nor do I really wish it). DAB was infuriated with my language and answered with two abuses (silly, erratic) for me on Talk:Utpala just a few minutes after reading my message of 'taking on'. I never abused him or any other editor. But this is DAB's normal language, and he never feels sorry for his lashing tongue or pen. DAB is right in saying that I have shown little sign of taking on anyone, because whenever anyone reverted or changed my edits, I normally refrained from warring. It is not timidity. Most of these editors are half my age and call me garbage, silly, nonsense &c, and therefore I leave the field silently. I never entered into any edit war.
As for the real points about this article raised by me, DAB has deliberately refused to discuss any point in a straightforward manner. Hence I will again raise these points one by one later. I hope DAB will calm down and think over the points I am raising like a scholar and not like a wrestler. I am not interested in Sarasvati-Harappa-horse arguments and Harappan-RV is surely a bogus idea, but I am sorry that DAB is attributing these wrong ideas to me which I never raised, and on such fictious grounds calls my arguments to be pure OR, WP:ATT and WP:ILIKEIT ! He did the same type of behaviour in Surya Siddhanta, in which a blatantly OR is still being displayed in the name of Surya Siddhanta which I tried to rectify but was prevented before I could finish. DAB says that if I cite academics he will cite them. Read the message above in which I have cited some leading academics, but DAB deliberately refuses to answer a single point raised by me and invents fictious charges against me on the basis of statements I never made (such as Sarasvati-Harappa-horse arguments and Harappan-RV ). On my talk page, DAB has sent a message that I am interested in a Indigenous Aryans debate due to ideological points (Hindutva), which is utterly wrong. I had anticipated (see above) that DAB will call me an obscurantist because he will not like to answer my points. I had stated above that "Whatever evidences I have cited above are not my OR or POV but are solid facts from the books of mainstream linguists".
I still think DAB is a good and rational person, but he has not worked over this tricky issue in a proper way. Rgvedic Dating is one of the most problematic questions in world history and it is wrong to adopt a dogmatic stance and refuse to listern to others calling them OR, NOR, FRINGE, Minority, lunatics, fanatics, etc. I wish DAB should take a personal interest in this matter and find out the truth himself. If one's attitude is genuine and neutral, sources and references will automatically come to him. Aryans and non-Aryans did not originate either in India or in Europe : all humans originated in central Africa nearly 4 million years ago and it is not my POV but a scientifically established fact. Hence nationalism, racialism, etc have no role in this debate.
Linear-B evidence is itself enough for putting the pastoral ancestry of those Greeks around or before 2000 BCE. It has shaken the very premise of Rgvedic dating. Even before 4th millenium BCE, Vedic peoples and Greeks were living in India and Europe respectivrly, and any migration must be traced before that. It is wrong to denounce facts such as Linear-B and adopt dogmas. But dogmas of over a century will need another century to remove it. Till then, let DAB live with his dogma and his "mainstream". But I still request him to examine the very (linguistic) bases of these dogmas. --Vinay Jha 21:44, 10 August 2007 (UTC).
I agree with Vinay Jha completely. Dab is suitably forgetting that he is trying assert RigVeda dating based on AIT which is a THEORY and not FACT. He is just trying to prove theory as fact and hence started deleting neutral dating addition without any talk. So, he should be understanding that he is asserting dating based on a linguistic theory. When Max Muller who propogated AIT said afterwards that nobody on the earth can determine dating of RigVeda, but Dab forgets this suitably. This is controversial and there is nothing wrong writing it as controversial. Opposition is for assertive portrayal of linguistic dating. WIN 12:37, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
moved to User_talk:Vinay Jha. Please don't abuse article talkpages for private exchanges. Wikipedia is not an internet chat forum. --dab (𒁳) 10:41, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
The Vedas were written down for the first time at the end of first millenium AD, when scholars anticipated a decrease in the willingness to preserve the Vedas as Shruti alone. But the content of all the Vedas had been exactly fixed during the Vedic period itself by means of ANUKRAMANIKĀ which listed all verses in proper order. ANUKRAMANIKĀ cannot be challenged as far as their authenticity is concerned; they are referenced in ancient texts. Hence if you have read somewhere that the "The Vedas are possibly changed", the author is certainly distorting facts so as to push some personal agenda or hypothesis.
as you can learn on our Anukramani article, opinion on inasmuch they are rooted in 'genuine tradition' is divided. They are clearly post-Vedic, but still date to before the Common Era (Mauryan period), and have to be taken seriously as ancient testimonies. Regardless of this, the consensus as to the authenticity of the samhitas is that they were indeed preserved perfectly since they were compiled in about the 9th to 8th century BC (that is, more than 500 years before the Anukramani). dab (𒁳) 10:44, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
The mainstream estimate of 1700-1100 is due to Oberlies:
what are our sources for estimates incompatible with the mainstream?
That's it. The Voice of India crowd plus Kazanas. Not a single Sanskritist. Not a single Historian. Not a single Indo-Europeanist. JIES with Kazanas has gone out of its way to make clear in detail why this is rejected to anyone who cares to read it. Your best bet will be Klaus Klostermaier, who actually has a PhD (in philosophy). These are the only sources outside the Oberlies "mainstream range" I am aware of that are at all quotable, and for this reason we do quote them, as fringe views per WP:UNDUE. If you have other sources that have not been mentioned so far, please do add them. If you have no other sources, I would ask you to drop the topic until you do. It turns out that this whole "new date" discussion is an artefact of Hindu nationalist propaganda, initiated in 1997 by Frawley's and Rajaram's Vedic Aryans and the Origins of Civilization. The discussion doesn't seem to stretch further back, and while it has made a stir in Hindutva circles, it remained restricted to nationalist literature. Academia didn't even react to this stuff, except for Witzel and Parpola, who debunked Talageri and Rajaram in 2000-2001. Kazanas was granted a platform in JIES 2002-2003, he failed to convinced anyone, and since 2003, the case has been closed. We can say that nationalist mysticist ideas were reviewed and rejected by academia 2000-2003, but that's as far as we can go. dab (𒁳) 13:42, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
In this article (Rgveda), it is mentioned in the beginning "the Rigveda was composed roughly between 1700–1100 BCE" and the citation refers to Max Müller, which is wrong. Max Müller talked of 1200 BC for the date of bulk of Rgveda, and 1500 BC for a handful of most archaic elements in it. One editor says "The mainstream estimate of 1700-1100 is due to Oberlies" (cf. DAB's talk above), but in the main article Max Müller is mentioned instead of Oberlies for this date. DAB admits "The 1700 date is much earlier than most people would go" , yet he says it is "the mainstream estimate" based on "academic consensus" (cf. talk above). How an estimate can be "mainstream estimate" and "academic consensus" if it goes against the opinion of "most people" ? DAB is citing a WP:FRINGE theory in the name of mainstream. Since DAB deleted my well sourced contribution made to this article (about etymology), I do not want to engage in an edit war with him who makes it a prestige issue and abuses me. I simply ask him to rectify the error. Refer 1700 BC to Oberlies in the introduction, and 1500 BC or 1200 BC to earlier indologists. 1700 BC is referred to Oberlies later in the article, but there is serious error in the introduction. My real issue, however, is something more significant.
Mohenjodaro met a violent end around 1750 BC, but other cities were abandoned without any war. Earlier, Aryan Invasion was thought to be the cause, but now a majority of mainstream academics are favouring the idea of a gradual migration instead of a violent attack. Even Witzel supports this view. Some people have asumed that Harappan civilisation ended in 1900 BC, so that 1700 BC could be proposed for upper date of Rgveda (1900 BC is actually the lower limit of C-14 dating at certain sites, upper limit being around 2200 BC at most places, but very few layers have been carbon-dated and there are many layers below and above carbon-dated layers; hence 2450-1750 BC has been accepted as the period of hitherto excavated Indus culture on the basis of stratigraphic analyses by experts, and many layers lies submerged in groundwater which may push the upper date before 2450 BC). But mainstream archaeologists agree that the twin cities finally ended around 1750 BC. An upper date of 1700 BC for Rgveda implies that the Rgvedic Aryans entered India when Harappan towns were being destroyed or abandoned, which hints at Aryan Invasion Theory (my source for dating in this para is excavation report of Archaological Survey of India published by Srikrishna Ojha).
Oberlies and some others tried to give the RV an extension of two centuries due to the problems posed by Linear-B &c (e.g, Hittite) which I tried to explain. Oberlies &c are not mad, they have reason for extending the upper limit of Rgveda, but this extension conflicts with the accepted date for the end of Harappan cities. This is the biggest problem of Rgvedic dating. Difference between earlier dating (1500 BC) and recent dating (1700 BC) is itself a proof of the controversy I am pointing to, but some peole wrongly believe there is no controversy at all. Oberlies &c are hoping for a consensus by extending Rgvedic dating by 200 years, and we should be interested in learning the reasons which compel these Indologists to extend the date of Rgveda, after 150 years of consensus on 1500 BC ? Had there been no urban culture in the Indus Valley, modern linguists would have extended the upper limit of Rgveda to nearly 2200-2400 BC , so compelling are the reasons calling for an extension of Rgvedic dating. I do not want anyone to cite unreliable or wrong theories. I just want to put the facts straight and try to understand the problem more deeply : this deeper understanding need not be reflected in the articles in detail, but one may put it in summarised form so that readers get a more realistic account. I have a few suggestions.
(1)Cite Max Müller, (2) then cite Oberlies, and then discuss in brief the reasons behind this 200-year extension, and ask whether this extension has solved all anomalies or not ? If not, then give a brief list of principal anomalies and controversies which remain to be solved. This is all I want. I never called for giving alternatte dates. Besides citing two approaches to dating (Max Müller and Oberlies),there are two more approaches, which are currently not favoured by mainstream academics : (3) equating Harappans with Vedic culture on account of fire altars found in Kalibangan and other reasons, and (4) Vedic culture preceded Harappan culture (there are many types of views which fall in this category, none of which has succeded in gaining academic consensus). These minority views need not be mentioned in Wiki, but the anomalies which are left unexplained in mainstream theories ought to be outlined somewhere. There is a difference between fact and opinion. Omit fringe opinions, but do not suppress facts even if they do not fit into your theory. Give the main theory, give arguments and facts in its favour, and mention remaining problems to be solved. As for citations, there are many citations in sources already mentioned in this article on Rgveda. E.g., read Kazanas : he asks how the Rgvedic Aryans settled on the the banks of Sarasvati centuries after it had dried up? Some of ideas expressed by Kazanas may seem to be too removed from prevailing mood, but he has mentioned many well sourced facts which need to be explained, or at least acknowledged and mentioned. There is no hurry. Attemts to explain away fire-altars of Kalibangan as ovens are as ludicrous as Rajaram's horseplay. I can give a list of principal anomalies in present theory which are facts, not opinions. It is wrong to infer that I some some hidden agenda. Those who suppress facts have agenda. --Vinay Jha 15:09, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
In my talk above, I had said that Max Müller has been wrongly quoted in this article's introduction. All my requests to rectify the errors and remove a biased account of Rgvedic dating fell on deaf ears. Instead, I received only abuses and threats on my and others' talk pages. Talk pages are meant for discussing the main article with a view to improve it, but DAB uses talk pages for abusing those people whose civility is taken to be a sigh of weakness. Scholars do not behave in this way. In spite of clear messages about the errors, they were not rectified, which led me to believe that DAB has not properly studied the sources he quotes and is relying upon hearsay. It was, therefore, useless to ask an ill-educated and ill-mannered person to rectify the errors. Hence I have today replaced the wrong and false citation to Max Müller in the introduction with the correct citation. If this correct version is distorted, DAB will see the consequences of all his abuses to me ("insane, crackpot, silly", etc) in the shape of a libel suit in an appropriate court of law. I still request him to behave like a sane being, if he can. I fail to see what satisfaction DAB gets by distorting the Wiki articles in an improper way. Very humbly and meekly I request DAB to study more and cite accurately, or ask for help from more knowledgeable persons, otherwise he will see more signs of my humility and meekness in future. -Vinay Jha 14:23, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
To IAF : I understand your resentment at deletion of your post by DAB; he deleted my post at talk page too, which is against Wiki policiy. Help create a better environment in Wiki. DAB advised BalanceRestored at his talk page that the proper way to study Hinduism and Rgveda is to study these topics through Western scholars only, and also said that Vinay Jha is the last person in the world to be consulted over Hinduism. I had tried to avoid edit war with DAB because I knew he is intolerant of anything which he has not studied. I have taken a decision to improve this article according to rules. There are many ways to resolve disputes, and if the whole world goes against Truth, Satyameva Jayate ('it is only the Truth which prevails' ; fools have translated it as "Let Truth prevail", but truth does not need the permission of fools and evil-doers to prevail upon them, head to toe). Wrong translations has distorted the meaning of ancient texts, and sometimes these errors are deliberate, e.g. in the case of Rgveda. Rgveda is a difficult text and it should be handles with care. Present article has errors in almost all passages and it will take a long time to correct them with proper referencing. --Vinay Jha 11:01, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Well sourced Dating of Rgveda needs time, and it is an ongoing issue. In the meantime I want to add a full list of all extant manuscripts of Rgveda in the Manuscript Section of this article, and if required well sourced short notes on each manuscript. I hope it will not be reverted. -Vinay Jha 22:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
1) If you do NOT delete other people's posts and do not merge sections of talk-pages in order to dilute a discussion. This is childish behaviour and I'm sure that you are at least of voting age.
2) Accept your mistakes wherever and whenever applicable, instead of stubbornly adhering to them. It will only cause you further embarassment, if you don't.
3) Do not mouth abuses when others point out your lack of knowledge. Patiently accept your mistakes and try to reach for a compromise.
4) Do not be stubborn and bicker over small issues. In short, be temperamental. Indian_Air_Force(IAF)
On Talk:Abecedare , DAB has said that I (wrongly) claim ṛchā for verse, while Monier-Williams gives ṛc . DAB is right, MW certainly forgot to mention ṛcha, but it is mentioned 13 times in Rgveda : 1.164.39 ; 2.3.7 ; 5.6.5 ; 5.27.4 ; 5.64.1 ; 5.64.4 ; 6.16.47 ; 8.27.1 ; 8.27.5 ; 9.73.5 ; 10.105.8 ; 10.165.5 ; 10.71.11 (the last being ṛchām). In comparison, ṛch in its all its variations occurs only 9 times. I may cite many secondary sources too, in which ṛchā has been translated . MW accomplished a great work, but if there are some lapses I should not be blamed for not knowing the Vedas.
I have answered DAB's question. Now will he please inform me why two forms ṛch and ṛchā were used in the Rgveda, instead of one, and what is the difference in meanings ? This question is pertinent to the present article, in which correct grammatical forms of ṛchā / ṛch and their correct meanings ought to be mentioned. - Vinay Jha 17:21, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Do not divert discussion to technicalities not needed in this article. I do not memorize the Vedas (although I remember a lot of verses due to perusal), I studied solely for understanding. Sāyana and other native commentators are far better guides for the Vedas than Western commentators , because Sāyana gave all possible meanings available to him while Western commentators prefer what they like. Slightest difference in structure often causes difference in meaning (cf. Indraśatru : shift in accent caused total reversal of meaning). I study Western commentators too, I was their blind follower during my early college years, but when I compared them with native commentators and tried to judge independently on the basis of historical and descriptive linguistics, semantics, &c, I found native commentators had a broader and more reliable background due to their deep roots in Vedic tradition which even Western commentators respected. "MW forgot" is a test for DAB and an invitation to study grammar, which he did, and I appreciate it cordially. I had pointed to finer aspects of Vedic semantics above (e.g, ṛkk-bhis given as vimimāna in some and mīyamāna in others by Sāyana once) which DAB could not grasp due to reliance on lopsided Western commentaries (if he has read any, I do not know, I am not taunting), and charged me of having no "interest in its meaning". I do not want to retort in the language of personal attacks as DAB is doing. I had initially hoped DAB will help me in the article on Rgvedic manuscripts because I can provide a good deal of but not every bit of needed information and references. But DAB's behaviour compels me to drop this idea of Mss article. Any discussion with DAB is counter productive because instead of improving Wiki articles it results in abuses and taunts. If I get involved in Mss article, I will be forced to absorb a few hundred new abuses. Stop, please. Have you no other task ? This discussion is now not helpful to present article. I am not retorting to your abuses and taunts, does it not satisfy you now ? If you want to abuse me more, use email and spare this page. - Vinay Jha 09:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
It seems clear to this uneducated outsider that both users Vinay Jha and Dbachmann/dab...
What is not clear is why the two of you are apparently unable to discuss this article without resorting to incivility and personal attacks aimed at one another. I would like the two of you to please consider, and acknowledge, that the points I have raised above apply to each of you. Vinay Jha, I feel that the wikipedia project will benefit enormously from your contributions; please take the time to familiarise yourself with its principles and guidelines because this will help us all to work together. And dab, while Vinay Jha is learning how wikipedia works, please be patient and polite towards him. Thank you both for your efforts. Sheffield Steeltalkersstalkers 17:20, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
The article Rgveda mentions "hymns dedicated to the gods". All the hymns of Rgveda are dedicated to some "devatā", and not a single hymn is dedicated to any deva or devi. Devatā is the feminine form of Daivata (masc., neut.), but in modern Hindi, devatā is used for all genders. Daivata is purely a Sanskrit word, not used in Hindi. MW translates devatā as godhead, divinity (abstract and concrete) (but idol in post-Vedic literature). Later Vedic texts used devatā for sense organs as well (MW cites ŚBr; Yājñvalkya in BrU gives a detailed account of 33 devatās which included the senses too, among other things). Keeping reliable sources in view, "hymns dedicated to the abstract and concrete godheads/divinities" is preferable to "hymns dedicated to the gods" (DAB's version) and "hymns dedicated to the deities" (IAF's version). I think editors will not object to this suggestion. -Vinay_Jha 08:47, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry to note DAB's comment "dear baby Ganesha" used for me in his edit summary. Even my well intentions edits are returned by abuses, although he is not using terms like shitholes presently which is his scholarly trademark reserved for Indians. I tried to stop, in good faith and without taking sides, the edit war between DAB and IAF, and as a result received DAB's fire. I am not an idolator, but I must say that DAB is unable to hide his hatred for Hinhuism and Hindus, and not only overgrown Hindus like me but even Hindu gods are babies for him. I had not anticipated such a response, which is actually a result of his ignorance of the actual meaning of devatā . Since he has again started using insulting me, there is no point in discussing anything.
Previously, DAB had remarked that rcā is instrumental case, but instrumental form is actually rcena. Hindi rcā has been derived from Sanskrit rcāḥ. I did not humiliate DAB by pointing to his lack of elementary knowledge of Sanskrit grammar, just because I wanted him to learn more. But now I am convinced that DAB is too arrogant and ignorant to learn Sanskrit and behave in a civilised manner (which is another meaning of sanskrit). I was not interested in what point IAF was making, I was just trying to stop the edit war. Go on fighting, I will not intervene. DAB is too incivil to be rectified by mere requests. Let him have his way in the main article, I am not going to waste my time over arguing with an uncivilised person. -Vinay_Jha 13:06, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I was looking for information on CLAMP's manga and anime RG Veda, which is a retelling by a group of women mangaka of a Japanese version of the Rigveda.
And what I get is a group of petulant complaints and nonsense written by egotists who each want to be The Boss. I know almost nothing about Sanskrit or the Rigveda, but I sure didn't learn anything from you people. I assure you that I do NOT care about your mutual accusations and hatreds except when they interfere, as they certainly do, with the main purpose of Wikipedia, which is to provide information to people like me.
This article is not your property nor your playground. Now stop the insults and do something useful.
For example, I have read -- I forgot where, so I'm looking for it -- that CLAMP's Rg Veda was based on Japanese folktale versions of the original. Do any of you know enough about the Rigveda to help answer that question? I truly and genuinely find the kind of insults and antagonisms you people display to be useless, counter-productive, and thoroughly unnecessary. So stop the insults. You all sound like angry children.
The bottom line is that there are other people out here, and we don't care how much you hate each other. We want information, not useless noise.
Timothy Perper 16:46, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I've moved some stuff around towards a possible refactoring. The first step was ToC changes to bring stuff together and move some into subsection level. Inter alia,
excellent work, rudra. dab (𒁳) 19:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Before anybody brings it back, explain what it was doing in the lead. Lead is meant to be a summary of the most important things that follow in the article. Linguistic and 'cultural' affinities to Avesta are not explained anywhere else in the article and the presence of the same in the lead is perplexing. Also explain, why we have to bend over backwards to squeeze in the bit about Andronovo. If it is the consensus that PII is/was associated with andronovo, then there is no need to qualify it. If it isnt, then we need to present both/all views. either way, andronovo in the lead is superfluous.. Sarvagnya 23:19, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
ah, wait, I don't see a problem to expand on the information in the article body. The sentence in the lead is very concise, appropriate for the introduction:
That's about as compact as it gets. Details on this should go to the "Dating and historical reconstruction" section. It is also correct that the references should be cited in the body, not in the lead. I have made an edit to this effect. dab (𒁳) 10:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
According to " Traditions and Encounters A global Perspective of the Past" the Rigveda was written from 1400 to 900 bce. they also refer to it as Rig Veda.
69.105.108.158 (talk) 05:35, 26 September 2008 (UTC) Zaniar Moradian, September 25, 2008
re this edit, I fail to see which part of the terminus ad quem article is supposed to justify the fiddling with the date range given. Your change to "2000–1500 BCE" is unjustified, and unjustifiable. Witzel is perfectly correct, the 14th century is a terminus ad quem. This is what we had all along, the 14th century lies squat in the mainstream range of "1500 to 1000". You aren't contributing anything here. --dab (𒁳) 19:40, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
It was supposed to have been redacted by 1200 BCE. Kris (talk) 20:08, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
no, it "was supposed" to have been composed by 1100 BC (or 1200, if you insist). That's not the redaction. The redaction into the current arrangement is much younger, and dates to the 1st millennium (about 800 BC). People too often throw around statements like "the Rigveda (1700 BC)". This is wrong. The Rigveda-as-we-know-it was compiled around 800 BC. "1700 BC" is only the oldest reasonable estimate for the oldest bits and pieces contained in the compilation. These floated around as individual hyms in priestly tradition for several centuries before the Iron Age shakhas compiled them into a fixed collection. Saying "the Rigveda (1700 BC)" is much like saying "the Iliad (1300 BC)". --dab (𒁳) 16:05, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
this isn't Kochar's original idea. This has been the general consensus for about 150 years. The RV wasn't compiled in one year, or one century, ok? It reflects half a millennium of history, roughly speaking, say, from Kabul in 1500 BC to Delhi in 1000 BC. --dab (𒁳) 10:09, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Knowledge is free for all (talk · contribs) keeps re-introducing claims of "controversy" in spite of being reverted, and without any attempt to build a case, or cite a reference. Random websites aren't "references" for the purposes of Wikipedia, see WP:RS.
Concerning the alleged Hindi translation of the Rigveda by Dayananda, I seem to be able to confirm that a commentary on Sayana's commentary by Dayananda was published posthumously, as Ṛgvedādi-bhāṣya-bhūmikā, in 1920. Pending actual citation of references or publication details on the part of the pov-pusher I will assume that is what they are intending to refer to.
I would advise Arya Samaj adherents to focus on cleaning up our article on Arya Samaj topics, including the Dayananda Sarasvati article itself, which unlike this article on the Rigveda tend to be in appalling states of disrepair. --dab (𒁳) 09:33, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
Ok, the first was a typo. And mentioned "Lazarus Press" was a publishing house in Benaras, India, and it is not the same as [7].
In the book, History of Modern India, the author Hukam Chand writes that Dayanada Saraswati died in 1863 [8], but most of the books and records state that the year for his death was 1883. Can we believe all publications? I have found typos in books published by Oxford, IEEE, Wiley, etc.
The source of Dayananda's knowledge of Vedas wasn't Mueller or anyone else. He learned Sanskrit grammar and proceeded with Vedic studies under Swami Virjananda [9].
Why is Dbachmann (talk · contribs) reverting what I state? There is nothing wrong in it and why not the world should know it? As a researcher I feel that what I have mentioned is perfectly correct and makes sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Knowledge is free for all (talk • contribs)
I have added referenced content about Dayanand's views and writings on the Vedas and other scholar's opinion of them. But I completely agree that all this content really belongs in Dayananda Saraswati, rather than here. There, when placed in context of his exemplary work as a social reformer fighting orthodoxy, his interpretation of the Vedas is perfectly understandable. Here, placed in context of historical and literary scholarship, they just end up appearing loony. More the pity. Abecedare (talk) 15:10, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
similar to Devaneya Pavanar whose work may have had the effect of uplifting Tamil self-esteem, but is at the same time utter nonsense in terms of scholarship, Dayananda should be treated as the founder of a new religious movement, and as a social reformer if that's what he was, but certaily not as a philologist. Scholarship doesn't equal charisma or popularity. Charismatic authors are primary sources, scholarly ones are secondary sources. --dab (𒁳) 20:27, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Who are you Dbachmann to say that Dayananda's translation is not a good work? Do you know ancient Sanskrit? Have you seen Dayananda's word-to-word translation and the justification he has done in tracing each and every word of the Sanskrit text to its root? I am sure that space research doesn't use ancient Sanskrit as a medium of explanation or usage, then on what basis are you bouncing your head over your heels and vice-versa? Dayananda spent a large part of his life studying the Vedas and translating them. His translation of the Rigveda fits in almost 3000 A4 size pages. Such an eminent work cannot be neglected. I have read read Griffith's translation, and Dayananda's translation too, and after consulting about 12 professors of Sanskrit, I state with assurance that Dayananda's work is far more superior linguistically and spiritually. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Knowledge is free for all (talk • contribs)
3000 pages equals an "eminent work"? Then Dayananda is dwarfed by any tabloid paper. But if your dozen professors have published their opinion in academic literature, as professors usually tend to do, you are perfectly free to just quote the relevant references. --dab (𒁳) 21:20, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
Who writes about physics? A physicist; not a carpenter! In the same way about Hinduism, Hindus should write, others can have an opinion but it is not the definition. How can linguists like Griffith or Max Muller understand the true spiritual meaning of the Rig Veda, when their approach was merely lingual, and of course, biased (this is what I have discerned). Why the people of India don't have the right to write their own history? Are Indians writing the French or English or German history? NO! You people are writing the WRONG history of India and providing FALSE REFERENCES for the future scholars. Dayanada Saraswati needs no introduction and his mastery of ancient Sanskrit is well-known. There are thousands of DAV (Dayananda Anglo-Vedic) institutions in India. Does this scholar need an introduction? Any why his translation and commentary on the Rigveda (Sanskrit to Hindi), which is available for free online [10], can't be considered in the Wikipedia section on Rigveda? His meaning of Sanskrit words agrees with the authoritative Nirukta-Nighantu.
there are many conspicuous things, or we can also say folk tales about rigveda . Rof and Bernof when tried to translate Rugved for the very first time in English, they died and the work was continued by Max Mueller, he was originally German, but came to England, and East India company financed him , for missinterpreting the translation of rugveda, It is also heared that he made Two sopis of rugved , one was the original, and the other was to miss guide Indians, many people also say that the deccan college is having some letters written by East India company to Maxmuller regarding the payments made towards him, for the work, and the answeres given by maxmuller to those letters, guyes if anybody is having any sort of fulll prooof information regarding this please add on this weiki............. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.94.151.104 (talk) 05:34, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
It seems that author/approver of this article is not aware of Indian Vedic History especially regarding dating of the writings of the Rigveda. In this article on many places it is written that Rigveda was not written down before 1200 BC. There are numerous references which verifies that Rigveda was written at least before 1200 BC or for that matter even before 2500 BC including. The oldest surviving manuscript may be a matter of investigation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.16.88.226 (talk • contribs)
the date of the oldest MS is, indeed, a matter of investigation. The result of the investigation is: 11th century CE. You do not appear to be aware of the history of writing in India. The Rigveda was not "written" prior to the Common Era. It was transmitted orally. There is no evidence whatsoever that would place the composition of the earliest origins of the earliest hymns before the mid 2nd millennium BC. The late hymns, the bulk of books 1 and 10, cannot be shown to predate 1200 BC. The redaction of the various collections of hymns into the ten books we have today dates to the 1st millennium BC. This is all properly explained and referenced in the article. You should read it. --dab (𒁳) 07:43, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
It seems that you are not aware of even world history and/or influenced my Max Muller who is considered to be on of the most biased historian, but still wikipedia is siting his reference, which make wikipedia itself biased. Can you go through the book [11] (Indo-Aryan Controversy By Edwin Bryant) before saying 2nd millennium BC as the earliest possible date. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.16.88.226 (talk) 09:58, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia is well aware of Bryant's book. You want to read Indigenous Aryans and Indo-Aryan migration. The 2nd millennium date of the Rigveda isn't affected by any of this. If you disagree, I look forward to your concrete citation of relevant peer-reviewed literature. Not even Talageri, whose only claim to academic impact are utterly condemning reviews, and who uses the Rigveda for far out claims about the Indo-European homeland and what not, doesn't go as far as proposing a date before 2000 BC (although he does indulge in tongue-in-cheek innuendo that he would love to favour an Early Bronze Age date[12]). This is Voice of India chauvinism, not philology. Much less is there any scholarly literature suggesting a date before 2000 BC. This is a non-starter. --dab (𒁳) 10:55, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
Let us suppose that the oldest surviving manuscript of Rigveda is from 11th century CE.
Then how does it implies that it was the oldest written manuscript. It might be possible
that other older manuscript might have been destroyed by invadors like Alexandar or Muslims.
Or, it might be also destroyed due to other reasons that we don't know.
Before going ahead we want to make it clear that the point of dicsussion is not the oldest
surviving manuscript which have been written rather ' The oldest possible date during which
Rigveda was written.' Now come to the following point what is the basis of your following
statement "The Rigveda was not "written" prior to the Common Era. It was transmitted orally"
where is the proper reference. Where is the basis of your following entry in
[13]
"Writing appears in India around the 3rd century BC in the form of the Brahmi script,
but texts of the length of the Rigveda were likely not written down until much later,
the oldest surviving Rigvedic manuscript dating to the 14th century"
This alongwith other statements on this Wiki page conflicts with the following wiki entry and should be removed.
[14] As your wikipedia entry says that Ramayana was written around 4th century BC.
Your wikipedia entry also says that Baudhayana's Shulba Sutras were written around 800 BCE to 600 BCE. [15] so is the case with the Mahabharatha dating. Even the above Datings are themselves may not be earliest. Then the argument is how it is possible that Vedic rishi's or philosopher had written Shulba Sutras, Ramayana, Mahabharata (before circa 500 BC) to name a few but they had not written Rigveda which was the most important and authoritative text. Where is the consistency of wikipedia. There is no surviving written manuscript of Euclid's element which dates back before common era. But still your Wiki [16] frequently says that Euclid's element was written by Euclid circa 300 BC. Apart from that go through the following references (Book: Indian Philosophy Vol. one BY S. Radhakrishnan) [17] (Book: Secret of Veda By Aurobindo) [18] (Book: The Cosmology of Rigveda By H.W. Wallis) [19] (Book: Rigvedic India By Abinav Chandra Das) [20] (Book: The Philosophy of Ancient India By Richard Garbe) [21] (Book: The religion of the veda the ancient religion of india By Maurice Bloomfield) [22]
These are the text which has been written by some of the independent historians but non of the above references supports your theory. Go through these text then think in a rational manner. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.16.88.226 (talk) 09:50, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
I don't think you have read the article carefully. It is undisputed that the Rigveda is the oldest surviving Indic text, much older than the Ramayana, the Sutras, etc. Only, all of these texts weren't written until a long time after their original composition. To compose a text isn't the same as writing down a text. --dab (𒁳) 10:13, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
I object to the removal of the lead sentence 'The dating of Rigveda has been a center of controversies; there is a strong disagreement among scholars.' from the 'Dating and historical context' section of the article.
The explanation given in the edit is 'supported by nothing in the following text' but I find that statement unconvincing as the following text contains contradictory statements. Specifically 'It is certain that the (Rigvedic) hymns post-date ... 2000 BC' contradicts 'An author, N. Kazanas ... suggests a date as early as 3100 BC' and 'Some writers based on astronomical calculations even claim dates as early as 4000 BC'.
Furthermore I consider the removal of the lead sentence to violate Wikipedia:NPOV
I'm not necessarily requesting that the lead sentence be put back in. An alternative would be to soften the 'It is certain that' text, maybe to something like 'Historically the consensus of the indologist community is that'.
Then add a reference to Bryant who is a mainstream indologist with a different view (as mentioned in the recent Sanskrit discussion).
Then have the non-indologist and non-mainstream scholars views.
There's also an issue with the last paragraph regarding animals. It discusses animals mentioned in the text but draws no useful conclusion regarding the dating of the text. I suggest that either it should be revised or (re)moved.
Kind regards ICouldBeWrong (talk) 14:49, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
I have removed the statement because it was mistaken. It is incorrect that "there is a strong disagreement among scholars" regarding the date and historical context of the Rigveda. There is hardly any disagreement at all, and we can easily cite half a dozen academic publications that give the communis opinio as simple fact, without any qualifiers of uncertainty. It is not a "violation of WP:NPOV" to remove unsourced, non-factual claims. The burden would lie on you to establish scholarly controversy. The political controversies in the Republic of India during the 1990s and early 2000s are to be treated as unrelated to this. Bryant does in no way dispute the mainstream assessment. Kazanas is not an Indologist, he is a Yoga teacher touted by the online Hindutva brigade. This is a non-issue, and Wikipedia has fully accounted even for this non-issue, for fully three years now (see Indigenous Aryans and Out of India). --dab (𒁳) 15:37, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Kazanas and related material is now put in proper context, of course fully referenced. I do ask you to review the Out of India article in detail at this point. This has all been discussed in great detail and with great care, and exhaustively, back in 2006 to 2007. If you want to maintain your "I respect the goal of Wikipedia to create an online encyclopedia and want to contribute in a helpful and polite way" you should now review the content and history of that article and react to the coverage we already have, instead of pretending that Bryant and Kazanas are being brought up for the first time by you. Once you do review the existing coverage, you will need to agree that Wikipedia has done a great job in absorbing the concerted attacks of politically motivated submissions of pseudo-scholarship. --dab (𒁳) 16:02, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Unfortunately the recent edits don't address my concerns.
My primary concern is that the article contains the statement 'It is certain that the hymns post-date Indo-Iranian separation of ca. 2000 BC', I believe this statement doesn't reflect mainstream opinion, and it's made without any supporting citation. I would like that statement to be removed from the article.
I believe Bryant is a mainstream source and I think his views should be present. Regarding certainty, 'Ultimately, all that can be authoritatively established about the chronology of the Vedic corpus.... is that it preceded the Buddhist literature that refers to it.' so it's older than 400BC, but we don't know exactly how old.
Regarding the Mitanni treaty and 1500-1400BC date 'the parallels between the Mitanni documents and that of the Veda ... do no necessarily demonstrate simultaneity'. pg 249.
I believe Bryant wrote the Indo-Aryan migration debate book because the dating of the texts is not well understood, it's still controversial/debatable. In his words 'In my view, the Indo-Aryan invasion/migration theory, at least in its present forms, as well as the dating of the Vedic texts, remain unresolved issues that invite unbiased fresh scrutiny'.
Regarding Kazanas he's not necessarily an Out of India (or Indigenous Aryans) supporter. He is against a migration date of 1500BC, but he doesn't rule out a migration earlier than 3000BC. So perhaps his work is most relevant to Indo-Aryan migration. But I'm not sure, he does seem to focus on the Rigveda, especially the dating of it.
Regarding absorbing attacks, I'm not sure what to say, I can see it is a real problem. Well done, to the wikipedia community, in surviving. IMO Wikipedia has proven better than any other online community that 'SoftSecurity is not weak security'.
I'll try to have another look at the Out of India, Indigenous Aryans and Indo-Aryan migration articles. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading them and learned a lot.
Thanks for editing the non-mainstream text, and adding some references.
Kind regards ICouldBeWrong (talk) 17:19, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
I guess it turns out that you are here to push the same old Hindutva propaganda. Not a single item you bring up has not been discussed to death three years ago. I do not have the patience to repeat that discussion for your personal benefit, as I do not think you are editing in good faith. Please stop adding this stuff to the article, it's not scholarship, it's the kind of propaganda fed to teenage nationalist on internet fora. --dab (𒁳) 16:59, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
I have come to doubt your good faith, sorry. Why? As I have said several times now, this is a very old discussion and you're neither adding anything new, nor do you show any readiness to familiarize yourself with the sources cited. You just bring up exactly those hand-picked "references" that you will be fed on a Hindutva internet forum. Are you being fed your sources on a Hindutva internet forum? Or how else do you explain why you stick to the handful of soundbites you base your "argument" on?
I can assure you that the article as it stands does correspond to the mainstream academic view very closely. There is no "evidence that supports a position of the Rig Veda being composed before 2000 BC". Literally none, this is just fantasy. You can't build a "consensus" on that. Your position is that of Voice of India, which is an outfit of nationalist revisionism and has nothing whatsoever to do with bona fide scholarship. --dab (𒁳) 11:22, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
I request a citation for this exceptional claim. I've tried to find a reliable reference for the claim, but haven't been able to. The best information I have been able to find regarding a limit on the oldest plausible age of the Rig Veda is based on Anatolian rather than Indo-Iranian, specifically, Bryant|2001|pp=266 "If Anatolian is considered an older language than Vedic, and was the first to peel off from the proto-language, and if Anatolian is attested in documents at circa 1900 BCE how can the later Vedic language be older than this date? This, too, is a chronological anchor that reasonably secures the date of the Rgveda to after 1900BCE. However, here we also need to eliminate the possibility that the Anatolian languages might have been much older than the date when they emerge in dateable records, and that they preserved certain archaic features from a hoarier antiquity". Please notice this quote doesn't say the limit is 'certain' just 'reasonably secure'. Kind regards ICouldBeWrong (talk) 09:50, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
I fail to see how the claim is "exceptional". It's just a terminus post quem. It is also unexceptional to state that the hymns post-date 200,000 BC. Nobbody claims that the hymns come anywhere near 2000 BC, it's just a date stated to be on the safe side. On the other end, we have 400 BC, it is absolutely certain that the hymns are earlier than that. Any "controversy", such as it is, concerns the question on how exactly you want to place the hymns in between 2000 to 400 BC. Most people (next to all scholars) will place the hymns in between 1500 to 1000 BC. Adding 500 years of "saftey margin" on either side gives you a time span that should comprise 100% of academic opinion.
Also, please stop citing Bryant. Start reading the other references cited in this article, in particular Thieme and Witzel, if you are really interested in the topic and want to get an understanding of the scholarly questions involved.
Let's see. Do you want a reference supporting the fact that the Rigveda post-dates IIr separation, or one that establishes that this separation is dated to ca. 2000 BC? Both is very easy to supply. If you want tertiary sources that summarize academic mainstream rather than presenting the view of one particular scholar, you should consult the EIEC. Mallory (1989), cited at Indo-Iranians, should also be a solid tertiary account (but the EIEC article is directly based on that, so it shold be enough if you just read that). Please actually consult these references before taking this any further. That the Rigveda postdates IIr. unity is almost too trivial to mention, because the Rigveda is ostensibly composed in an Indo-Aryan, not an Iranian language. Case in point, there is no /z/ phoneme in the Rigveda. If you want to dispute that the Rigveda is Indo-Aryan this discussion probably isn't going anywhere anyway. As an experiment, go to Talk:Homer and ask for a reference that the works of Homer are later than Proto-Greek and see where people will tell you to stuff your "controversy". --dab (𒁳) 11:18, 4 January 2010 (UTC)
:
Found this translation which seems to be more accurate and captures the intended meaning better than others currently in External links section:
http://www.srivaishnava.org/scripts/veda/rv/rv1.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:(({1))}|(({1))}]] ([[User talk:(({1))}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/(({1))}|contribs]])
this is apparently a translation "based on Sayana and Wilson". The Sanskrit is in some weird private format.
The translation isn't useless, but it isn't clear whose translation it is (just Wilson's?) --dab (𒁳) 10:10, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
The first external link is full of errors. Should we put this in a comment, or just remove the link?
You can check this independent of any other source: Already in Sukta 1, verse 1, the ISTA text has two differences between the Devanagari and the transliteration. [23].
If you look more into it, you’ll find that certain letter combinations are always wrong (like the transliterated "gh" instead of "g" in the first and second line), so it looks like some conversion software generated all the errors. Geke (talk) 12:44, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
(there are two links in this page that provide external links, which I thought would be more relevant within the article rather than external references; however wikipedia allows me to add weblinks separately on the reference page only- if interested in the links, please copy paste them)
There has been significant discord on the dating issue over the years and the number of objections raised on this page itself is proof of that. Some of the objections raised in this talk page itself, and pertinently, is about how that wikipedia is supposed to present neutral information.
Most of the information presented in the page is quite non-neutral. The dating issue should be the primary one, because it is the entire cause of the large amount of misinformation in this article, which stems mostly from Western ignorance of the Vedas, and lack of understanding of Sanskrit and its cultural context. (and is the main cause why most of this fabricated history continues to be taught, not only in the Western World but also Indian textbooks, though this is gradually changing.)
The primary cause of this misinformation is one Max Mueller who is single handedly responsible for distorting the understanding of the Vedas in the nineteenth century, which continues to this day because of Mueller's immense reputation as a scholar. There never was any concrete evidence to its dating between 2000-1500BC, except Mueller's own claim. This claim was largely fabricated. Mueller wished to enforce the Christian calendar's date of the beginning of the world. He also saw it necessary to assert Western Cultural superiority over the East in order to reinforce Western colonial rule. The only way to do this was to invent the Aryan Invasion theory and that the invaders brought the Vedas with them. The main reason this was so well accepted at the time was the linguistic relationships of the Indo-European languages. A simple linguistic link is not sufficient for this theory to hold, as more evidence(discussed later in this entry) has destroyed all credibility of the Aryan Invasion theory, and provides evidence that if anything, a migration happened outwards.
There has been significant discord with Mueller's opinion amongst Indians since the early 20th century, who pointed out its inconsistencies, but lacking command of English, did so in their own languages, which is why it rarely ever reached Western scholars(till in the last twenty-thirty years, as they are being translated). When it did, these claims were dismissed because Western scholars of the time saw their own 'scientific' judgments as superior. One of the luminaries to point out an inconsistency was Bal Gangadhar Tilak who pointed out certain astronomical phenomena in the Rigveda that were 6000-7000 years old. Sri Aurobindo in his Secret of the Vedas(in English!) also points out certain problems, though his tone, like a true yogi's, is modest. Indians who made their voices heard were in a better position to understand their own linguistic heritage, and its cultural contexts. Mueller misinterprets the Vedas as a mythical story about tribals and nature-gods and about 'Light versus Dark'- a completely christian interpretation; the duality of Light versus Dark is never given too much importance in Hinduism. (think of troy, which was considered mythical till its discovery)
David Frawley, an American, addresses most of the issues in the dating of the Rigveda and the validity of the Aryan Invasion theory in his articles(available at www.vedanet.com). The primary need for this kind of academic revision is because a linguistic link is simply not credible, because it never addresses the issue which way the migration happened. Recent evidence gathered from satellites show that the Saraswati River bed went dry much earlier than 3000BC. In the Rigveda, Saraswati is hailed with immense praise and described as the primary river, not the Ganges which is mentioned only once as a minor river. The Rigveda describes the Saraswati basin as seven times wider than what its dry riverbed is observed by us now. This means that the Rigveda was written much before 3000BC. Much before any of the Egyptian, Mayan, Sumerian or Mesopotamian civilizations. (I hereby am adding a link, to an extremely insightful analysis of the Vedas done by an Indian as early as 1904.)
http://phoenicia.org/rigveda.html
The Indus Valley Civilization was discovered and excavated in the 1920's. Archaeological excavations found no convincing evidence of an invasion driving the indigenous people away(there have been some peculiarities in the topmost layer of this archaeological dig(the least technologically advanced)- like certain corpse groups found dead with hands folded in prayer, and an extremely high radioactive count in the area, possibly a remnant of an ancient radioactive explosion. Pre- 1945, some of the descriptions in other Indian texts were dismissed as gibberish by Western Scholars. Only after Hiroshima and Nagasaki were the connections seen) Joykrit (talk) 23:08, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
On the topics you mention, please read our articles at Indigenous Aryans and Out of India. This is a topic of political propaganda within the Republic of India, and not of scholarship. This article does have a section on such propagandistic use of the authority of the Rigveda, under the section "Indigenous Aryans debate". No really, please read it.
As for "non-neutrality", you want to read WP:NPOV. Wikipedia by "neutrality" means a neutral stance between scholarly hypotheses of equal standing, not 'neutrality' between items that are incommensurable, such as critical scholarship vs. nationalist or religious propaganda.
Incidentially, presenting some random url as an "extremely insightful analysis of the Vedas" to a crackpot theory that the Phoenicians in fact came from India does not really do anything to help your case. --dab (𒁳) 15:30, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
I made this rather unnecessarily long rant after reading all the wiki pages cited above. As for labeling it as "political propaganda", I could have easily written the entire thing in a more neutral light, but it is this "political propaganda" that is the cause of such elaborate misinformation doing the rounds on the internet and consequently mass psyche. And before labeling the link, as "random" and non-scholarly, you should read the whole thing if you doubt its scholarship. (Some of the cultural references cited are probably unknown to Western readers) The article in the above link was originally written in Bengali. It has only been translated into English in recent times. It is also quite neutral- it makes no outright criticism of Mueller because in 1904, Mueller was considered the utmost authority, primarily because of his Western heritage, and also because linguistic theories dominated Indo-European studies.
And I have already mentioned David Frawley above (In Search of the Cradle of Civilization. His wiki page contains the following link which presents the matter in a less politically colored light as mine, but says the same thing:
http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/aryan/aryan_frawley_1.html
Frawley has written significantly on this subject. They are scholarly books and articles, and Frawley is widely recognized amongst Indian Vedic scholars as an authority on the subject. But I saw the following sentence on Frawley's wiki page also: "Edwin Bryant writes that Frawley's work is more successful in the popular arena, to which it is directed and where its impact "is by no means insignificant", rather than in academic study."
I suppose wikipedia defines "scholarly" as something that is published by Western publishing houses. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.160.131.25 (talk) 19:17, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Publishing houses to the west of what? Just as long as they are academic and peer-reviewed. And preferebly, for the purposes of English Wikipedia, sources in English. If you have good Russian language sources, perhaps you want to try ru:Риг-веда. Frawley is a non-starter, he isn't even a scholar, not even a sub-par one. Of course, the concept of an encyclopedia is European, developed in 18th century France. Yes, we are dedicated to building a database along the lines envisaged by Denis Diderot, that's the premise here. If you don't subscribe to the general idea, perhaps you would fare best by simply ignoring the project altogether. --dab (𒁳) 12:06, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
I could cite Klaus Klostermaier too, but you would just call him "not even a sub-par one" as well I bet. For the record,as it says on Frawley's wikipedia page, "Frawley is one of the few Westerners to be recognized by a major Hindu sect in India as a Vedacharya or teacher of the ancient wisdom." Dishonest intellectuals like Michael Witzel are openly ridiculed in India.—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:(({1))}|(({1))}]] ([[User talk:(({1))}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/(({1))}|contribs]])
by "in India" you mean, of course, "in Hindutva propaganda". This is fair enough, I suppose, as Witzel is also fond of "openly ridiculing" Hindutva pseudo-scholarship.
Look, we have been over all this in 2005. If you have some new development to add, please bring it up already. As long as you just keep harping on the same old Frawley-Rajaram-VoI propaganda stunts of the BJP years, you are just wasting everyone's time. If you can cite a relevant peer-reviewed publication by Klostermaier we can include it within WP:DUE, no problem.
Please. If Frawley is such a great expert on Jyotisha and Ayurveda, why doesn't somebody discuss his work in these fields for a change? --dab (𒁳) 07:47, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Regarding this issue I still believe a mention of the alleged archaeoastrology references in the text warrant a mention. If it doesn't merit inclusion on the basis of being a scholarly topic, then maybe it can still be included on the basis of being a popular opinion held in India. I suggest something like 'Many Hindus believe that the Vedas including the RigVeda pre-date 3102 BC, the date they consider Krishna to have died. Writers outside the mainstream have claimed since the late 19th Century that this date is supported by astronomical observations in the Vedas, and other evidence.' ICouldBeWrong (talk) 08:59, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
you have got it upside down, and I take it you still are fed your information from Hindutva blogs instead of actual literature.
I really hope that you are beginning to appreciate that a lot of effort has already gone into making this article extremely accurate, and that all points you have raised so far have been fully addressed since at least 2007. You will actually learn much about the Rigveda just by reading this article. I know this is surprising considering Wikipedia's average article quality, but you may come to realize that some Wikipedia articles are actually well-developed and fact-checked. --dab (𒁳) 11:24, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
I think in your opinion,the scholars which prefer 1500bce date for rigveda are real scholar,and who favours 3000bce are religious one and may not be called scholars.Let me explain you one thing dab,According to hindus as well as references in puran,Rigveda was composed just after creation of this universe by brahma.so according to religious beliefs rigveda was composed during 100000000000000Bce or more.But now some scholars from india and few from westwards have begun to challenge both myth created by religious group as well as by early 19th century indologists.They also give their arguments.
But if these scholars who favours 3000bce date are continuously Ignored,then no truth can be come.No one can tell how much year old the rigveda is?,we have not a time machine.Whatever we have are some theories given by scholars.You can see debate between Witzel and kazanas to verify dates of rigveda.In this discussion kazanas have overruled all claims raised by witzel.--Bankelal (talk) 22:17, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Aryabhata is a real scholar, but he is a real scholar from the 6th century. He simply did not have the evidence available than we do today. This is no slight on Aryabhata. It is not Aryabhata who is stupid, it is those who unthinkingly embrace his calculations as religious truth today. Constructing a "controversy" between Aryabhata's date and Witzel is like claiming a "controversy" between Aristotle and Richard Feynman. The 3102 BC date is Aryabhata's not Kazanas'. If Aryabhata is Aristotle and Witzel is Feynman, Kazanas would be somebody like Gene Ray. --dab (𒁳) 15:14, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Let me explain you one thing that why 3000bce date for mahabharata war is famous in Indigenous circle
Now we all know that rigveda is prior to mahabharata,if mahabharata war was fought on 3000bce,then rigveda will certainly predate 3000bce as claimed by kazanas.
Thank you.--Bankelal (talk) 17:43, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Referencing the Indigenous Aryans "debate" is non-germane to the article. We're talking about the oldest extant religious scriptures in the world, and to include the "debate" of political fringe politicians who are in no way experts in the field seems a disservice and diminishes the importance of these texts. It should be completely removed from the article. As a Hindu living in India, I would like the same uncompromising level of scholarship applied to texts which I hold sacred as that applied to, say, the Bible. Imagine a sub-heading in the Bible article entitled "Importance in the Christian Identity doctrine." We would correctly reject legitimizing such ethnocentrism and bigotry, so what place does its analogue have in the Rigveda article? Neverignorant (talk) 10:28, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
you have a point. The main reason we have this section is that editors would keep adding these authors as "scholars" unless they were already covered. It is better to have a section that gives a realistic perspecitve on this than perpetual attempts at misrepresentation.
Your comparison with the Bible article is reasonable. Or perhaps "Rigveda" would correspond best to Torah in Abrahamic terms. The material pushed by Kak and the VoI crowd perhaps corresponds to the topic of Bible codes, and the "fundamentalist" interpretations of Dayananda et al. would correspond to Biblical literalism.
Now, there is a brief allusion to Biblical literalism and pseudoarchaeology, under Bible#Archaeological_and_historical_research, but nothing like a dedicated section. In this sense, I think it would be justified to export the discussion of the "Indigenous Aryans debate" under WP:RECENTISM and WP:DUE and leave behind just a brief mention. But it may be worth considering whether within Hinduism, Hindutva notions of Indigenous Aryans might not carry a weight more significant than bible-thumping crackpottery within Christianity as a whole. This is difficult to estimate. I don't know this, we need tertiary literature on the question. --dab (𒁳) 13:18, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
((edit semi-protected))
speaks about Aryans and their enemies Dasas. Incorrect. see "The Historiography of the Concept of 'Aryan' by Romila Thapar in the Book 'India : Historical Beginnings & the Concept of the Aryan'- Publisher - National Book Trust, India.
59.92.63.156 (talk) 14:15, 7 October 2010 (UTC)
Many citations in wikipedia regarding the antiquity of India do not follow the scientific historical method and often the dates are pure speculations. I refer to books written with the heart and not with the brain of many Indian historians, especially when commenting their sacred texts, and western romantic authors of the XIX century. To suppose antiquity of the Vedas of 6000 -9000 years the BCE is a nonsense for history that use document written. In this case Vedas became more more ancient than a probable archeologic proto-arian culture. Before of divergence between Greek-Ittiti-Iran-Vedic language. It is a speculation like the existence of Atlantis to see Critias in Plato. Or the thesis that it sees Sphinx like pre-glacial civilisation manufact. On the same “non-historical” bases is possible to affirme that Athens existed during Atlantis empire that it was destroyed by the end of the Ice Age with the increase of sea level Critias mentions the date of 9.000 years before 400 BCE that coincide with the end of Ice Age. And it is possible find tons of modern book that sustain these thesis. But is this history ? No
The historical evidence that the Vedas are ancient almost 1800-1200 bce is the fact that in them, for analogy there is an arian pantheon (as Greeks, Germans and Ittits and Mitanni, ecc). The first written texts about of arian Pantheon we had in linear B texts in greek, written about 1400 bce and especially in texts of Hittits and Mitanni (2000-1500bce). (The greek linear B and Hittits an Mitanni written systems are decoded only in XX century linear B in 1950) so the autors of XIX century couldn’t have these informations. [Now Out of India theory is illogic and untenable more more probable is an Anatolian origin or Balkan-Russia nomades origin see history of Vinca culture,this it explains migration to the nord and nordic arian religion ) Andronovo culture is much recent, contemporary Hittits that were arians and more sophisticated ('''' ]. So in the Rig Veda it exists a pantheon that at least ancient as others pantheons. (1800-1200 bce). A similar Rig Veda war exist also in North Europe mythology between Æsir–Vanir War. Rig Veda as North myths remained open to oral interpolations while in the written cultures the pantheon became closed. In Rig Veda as in greek Theogony (written and fixed in VII BCE from Hesiod but the pantheon existed a bit different in linear B XIVc bce) the gods are super-humans, they use the humans. they argue, they are vindicative ecc. They need of Soma or Ambrosia. The crystallized greek gods remain simples and anacronistics, the greeks themself not believed them prefering rational philosophy in contrast in the oral Indian religion without written text the gods could evolve in more complex and contradictories figures and with Upanishads philosophy integrated them. The languages evolved also in different terms. Greek for written analysis (verbs irregularities, short compound word, infinite and very specific words continually created or absorbed from other languages as English today) Vedic sanskit but particularly Classic sanskrit for oral analysis and memoring. (sound, long compound words, modular words to indicate new concepts, rational and simple grammar) (About Rig Veda pantheon analysis I can cite the introduction of history of Indian philosophy of S. Radhakrishnan, the Rig Veda chapitre and comparative conclusion) He knew very well both the classical Western culture and Indian culture.
The Harappa culture is another problem, there is element of these culture in Rig Veda ? Surely they hadn’t arian pantheon and arian language infact the written system at moment isn’t decoded. If they spoke similar sanskrit language now we could understand the written system. But is probable that elements of Harappa culture entered in Vedas. Surely the legends of a great civilisation that despared remained in the indigenous immaginary. And Arians found that one. As the Roman Empire myth in the dark medieval Europe overwhelmed by the imposing ruins. An advanced civilisation (the myth of Babyl tower) destroyed by religious fanaticism and human fear. The same ghosts that still exist today....in the globalized world (see Bamyan Buddhas) (and also in wikipedia).
I don’t want write on the article i am not specialist and i not english speaker, but I want sustained about origin of Rig Veda that nobody born alone. And that isn’t important be ancient but to be true. And the true and agape had lot of roads. (Plutarcs, Dao etc) But history has only the science road.
Malipiero —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.222.76.2 (talk) 21:20, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
sorry, it isn't clear what you want. You seem to be just stating your broad agreement with what is already in the article, and your disagreement with various things that are not. --dab (𒁳) 18:10, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
The article is good, one of the best in wikipedia on "Indian culture". There aren’t "superlative" and "hyperbolic" adjectives. In this article the dates are handled with logic.
Example in other wikipedia articles about India philosophies and religions often is possible to find : 1 "X is the oldest human religion" 2 “X religion has prehistoric origins dating before 3000 BC... before Indo-Aryan ecc 3 “the wisdom of mathematics came in Egypt and Mesopotamia from India, etc. ". 4 “the presocratics philosophers are gone in India to know “the light of knowledge” 5 “the earliest references to the concept of Y date back to ancient India in (precise date of oral fact), appearing first “in the world” in X religion. All with citations of pseudo-historian texts written from “guru” or XIX century romantic autors, or out of context citations.
I don’t understand because for lot of Indian peoples is so important ““to be the ancient of the world””. Often the wikipedia forums are much interesting as the article. I see that there are same cultural problem in this forum so I just wanted to post on this forum to respond to some who confuses the mythical origins with the historical origins.
Only this. I finish here, greetings and good work.
Malipiero —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.223.58.66 (talk) 11:11, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
You are right, there is a cultural problem. Apparently, in India it is socially acceptabe to pile up random hyperbole about your own group and present it as "encyclopedic". I would be greatly interested in a study that explains this phenomenon. --dab (𒁳) 11:52, 5 December 2010 (UTC)
It seems India has adopted and absorbed many foreign attributes, a process which is even going on now, (English, clothes, Central Asian meat/cuisine, Hindi/Urdu etc...) It is safe to say that the origins of Hinduism are also foreign and were adopted into a local Indian version that we see today. But as the original lands from where this texts adopted newer or alternative faiths, the last remaining adherents to what would become the Hindu faith, would be the version found in India. For this reason, many modern historians now claim that Hinduism itself may not necessarily be a native religion of India, but rather a hybrid of a foreign faith that was brought into India and mixed up into the pagan polytheism that was prevalent in parts of South Asia. The article should bring attention and mention this very important facet of hinduism as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.32.116.64 (talk) 18:41, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
>>>>Delete this comment above or keep mine as well. This person doesn't understand what India is: before independence, after independence or the Bharatvarsa that Vedic/Hindu religion talks about?. Rigveda belongs more to Hinduism than India, Indian borders can change tomorrow, but Hinduism is the religion which started based on RigVeda (in past/history), unless we can wipe out history somehow, that association remains. Further, irrespective of how mush archaic RigVeda language is, it is still Sanskrit a language of Hinduism/North India and nothing else. Pointing out relationships is ok, but respect degree of difference and accuracy of what you are suggesting.
The original text I added on this issue (available below) sounded like full blown propaganda, so I am restating the problem in neutral terms. This is about Wikipedia's NPOV.
A non-neutral article should be journalistic, that is it should contain both sides of a debated issue. The Rig Veda dating does not.
For example the sentence "the Rigveda was composed in the north-western region of the Indian subcontinent, roughly between 1700–1100 BC" should include the other side of the argument also by adding "this is a topic of dispute in current scholarship" Such a harmless sentence exists on other wikipedia pages without the need for references.
That said, the arguments I have presented in my previous addition to this page about the Sarasvati river and such, which are used to counter 'historically accepted' datings of the Rig Veda are all presented in a legitimate reference:
The important part is in Page 14 of the pdf document.
I am assuming that anything showing up on Google scholar is a legitimate reference according to Western Scholarship, since anything published outside Western Publishing houses is not given credence, though there is enough written about this issue there also.
To make things easier, let me lift David Frawley's actual text to make my point.
"The Sarasvati is lauded as the main river in the Rig Veda and is the most frequently mentioned river in the text. It is said to be a great flood and to be wide, even endless in size, the greatest and most central river of the region of the seven rivers.(*11) Sarasvati is said to be "pure in her course from the mountains to the sea."(*12) The Vedic people were well acquainted with this river along its entire course and regarded it as their immemorial homeland. The Sarasvati, as modern land studies now reveals, was indeed one of the largest rivers in India in ancient times (before 1900 BC) and was perhaps the largest river in India (before 3000 BC). In early ancient and pre-historic times, it drained the Sutlej and Yamuna, whose courses were much different than they are today.(*13) However, the Sarasvati river went dry by the end of the Harappan culture and well before the so-called Aryan invasion or before 1500 BC. How could the Vedic Aryans know of this river and establish their culture on its banks if it dried up some centuries before they arrived? Indeed the Sarasvati as described in the Rig Veda as a green and fertile region appears to more accurately show the river as it was prior to the Harappan culture as in the Harappan era it was already in decline. In the Brahmanas and Mahabharata the Sarasvati is said to flow in a desert and in the latter does not even reach the sea. The Sarasvati as a river is later replaced by the Ganges and is almost forgotten in Puranic literature. The stages of the drying up of the river can be traced in Vedic literature showing the Vedic people did not merely come at the last phase of the river's life."
I have emboldened the relevant parts of the text. In this vein, the original Rigveda article should at least mention, from a neutral viewpoint, the alternate date proposed, in this case long before 3000BC, as the above citation explains.
Google Books allows the access of another David Frawley Book- Gods, Sages and Kings(link below) which has a similar argument about dating on Page 15 :
Part of the page has the following words- "The Vedic people had a calendar based upon astronomical sightings based on the equinoctial positions going back from 2000BC to at least 6000BC."
Since the oldest Vedic is the Rig Veda, it is quite obvious that this refers to no other book. Furthermore, the notable phrase in the above quote is "at least" since it makes clear that there are much older astronomical references.
Joykrit (talk) 21:11, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Another side of veiw should also be given in the article to satisfy Wikipedia's NPOV
Thanks for the last one. But no matter what information is added on this page, it won't make a difference. Dates won't be changed and history will be presented in a distorted manner. Primarily because the Internet like everything else, is under Illuminati control. I only keep adding these relevant points even though I know nothing will be achieved. I think what scares the Illuminati most of all is the possibility of the world realizing something that Will Durant said- "India was the mother of our race and Sanskrit the mother of Europe's languages. She was the mother of our philosophy, mother through the Arabs, of much of our mathematics, mother through Buddha, of the ideals embodied in Christianity, mother through village communities of self-government and democracy. Mother India is in many ways the mother of us all.” If that were to happen, things would go reeling out of their control as people would turn to the Rig Veda. But I suppose they would easily start making up bad things about Will Durant too, and find ways to make him look like a "sub-par" scholar too. Joykrit (talk) 05:56, 28 March 2010 (UTC)
The above quote is, of course, not the original opinion of User:Myth&Truth (as is obvious already from the correct English). It is, rather, a copy-paste job from an article apprantely printed in The Hindustan Times, written by N.S. Rajaram. Now, Rajaram is a rabid nationaist and a dyed-in-the-wool crackpot. Frawley's confused mysticism is positively sane by comparison. There is WP:SNOW no way this article will cite anything by him with a straight face. It is a common misconception, but WP:NPOV does not mean "quote any old nonsense posted on the internet, no matter what".
Will Durant is a popular writer, addressing the American general reader, no more and no less. He is essentially the early 20th century version of "world history for dummies". If you like to read his stuff, it's better than sitting in front of the television, but his writings certainly aren't "scholarship" in the narrow sense. --dab (𒁳) 07:38, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Regards......Sathya Venkatraman 16:18, 6 February 2011 (UTC)I would like to add the following external link to a site which has significant unique contents on Vedas