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There's an ongoing problem stretching over a number of articles about Polish-Jewish history, i.e.: personal memoirs of Holocaust survivors, so eagerly quoted here by some editors. The diaries often contradict the evidence collected over the following decades by professional historians. Aside from the detailed description of individual experiences—which can be considered accurate—personal memoirs written by contemporaries usually include a barrage of normative opinions written without any historical perspective. It looks like, each and every one of those articles featuring quote-farms of normative statements needs to be dealt with separately.
Take as an example, the following Google copy-paste job in the article Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust.[1] Polish-Jewish contemporary historian, Emanuel Ringelblum, wrote in 1943, clearly unaware of how little was being done in the West to save the Jews from the Holocaust: "…Polish people. It is they whom we blame for the fact that Poland has not taken an equal place alongside the Western European countries in rescuing Jews." Ringelblum surviving in the Warsaw Ghetto could not have been aware of what the West was doing, nor did he know about the clandestine work of people such as Jerzy Jan Lerski or Stefan Korboński. Korboński “sent many telegrams to London to alert the world about the destruction of the Jews, telling that 700 daily were being loaded into freight wagons and dispatched to Treblinka where they were all gassed. But the BBC was silent, nobody abroad believed it: neither the [Western] Jews nor the British authorities. London was flooded with telegrams about Jews being brought from the Balkans, Hungary, Holland to Auschwitz. Even Jews being thus transported from abroad in trains with suitcases and valuables and told by Germans that they are transferred for work, did not believe when some Polish railway men whispered them the truth.” (Anna Poray) Ringelblum’s statement therefore, is an expression of his depth of despair. It is NOT a statement of historical fact and therefore cannot be quoted in Wikipedia for informational value. But it is...without as much as a footnote.
There are other, endless examples of how selected quotes from individual memoirs are being taken out of personal context and copy-pasted here for the shock value of their normative statements. I wrote about this already during the latest ArbCom case against Piotrus. Unfortunately, I do not have time to go over every article featuring these sort of misrepresentations of facts. The restoration of balance is going to take joint effort and so, I’d like to appeal to editors interested in this subject to please consider helping out as part of your New Year’s resolution maybe. Thanks. --Poeticbent talk 21:53, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
http://www.zyciezazycie.pl/ is a modern and probably reliable source, unfortunately only in Polish. Xx236 (talk) 13:35, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
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Why is Ringelblum's notable? At best, they should be moved to "Individual_testimonies" section. I do also recall that his views were discussed by scholars (Piotrowski? Paulsson? One of those, at least...) who pointed out that he made a lot of guesses, assumptions and comparisons, while in fact limited in his actual knowledge to his personal experiences of hidding in Warsaw (and do remember he died before the end of the war, so he certainly didn't see the big picture - despite making grandiose claims about Polish nation and such).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 12:51, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
Wrong Szumsk, too.Xx236 (talk) 09:10, 12 January 2009 (UTC) The same fate met the villagers of Stara Huta near Szumsk.[50] - the quoted text may inform about the death of the Jews only. Xx236 (talk) 09:18, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
The article does not define who were the Poles. If you don't define your words, you may prove anything.Xx236 (talk) 08:05, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Go to geography lessons to know who is "Pole"! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.9.123.24 (talk) 17:38, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
Firstly,
YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 06:33, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
I've rewritten the lead; hopefully now it is more comprehensive and neutral.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 17:53, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Can this be compacted into clean lines with references instead of "According to" or Paulsson said" or "Paldiel writes" etc.?
According to one reviewer of Paulsson, with regard to the extortionists, "a single hooligan or blackmailer could wreak severe damage on Jews in hiding, but it took the silent passivity of a whole crowd to maintain their cover."[23] He also notes that "hunters" were outnumbered by "helpers" by a ratio of one to 20 or 30.[8]. According to Lukas the number of renegades who blackmailed and denounced Jews and their Polish protectors probably did not number more than 1000 individuals in Warsaw (or less than one hundredth of one percent of the city's population). [10] German propaganda antisemitic poster, written in polish language. Says: "Jews-sucking louse-typhus", hanged out on Polish streets in 1942, German-occupied PolandMichael C. Steinlauf writes that even more than the fear of the death penalty for aiding the Jews, the major obstacle limiting Polish aid to Jews was popular attitudes towards Jews, which made individuals uncertain of what their neighbors' responses would be to attempts at assistance.[27] Steinlauf however notes that despite these uncertainties, Jews were helped by thousands of individual Poles throughout the country. He writes that "not the informing or the indifference, but the existence of such individuals is one of the most remarkable features of Polish-Jewish relations during the Holocaust."[27] Nonetheless, number of authors have noted the negative effects of the significant hostility towards Jews by Poles in the general population and within the the organizations and parties that comprised the Polish underground, the majority of which favored a policy of eventual removal of Jews from Poland.[28][29][30][31] The 1980s saw the publication of scholarly studies that challenged earlier assumptions about Polish behavior during the war, amongst these were beliefs that a large segment of the Polish population provided assistance to Jews during the war; that the death penalty for aiding Jews was the main obstacle to providing aid, and that anti-semitic attitudes had been marginal in Poland during the war and remain so.[32] Alina Cala's study of Jews in Polish folk culture argued for a persistence of traditional Christian antisemitism, including the belief in the blood libel claim against Jews. Johnathan Zimmerman wrote that Cala's findings on attitudes of Polish peasantry during and after the war confirm what he describes as a growing consensus among scholars that an active stance by Poles towards Jews during the Holocaust either to assist or to betray was a marginal phenomena. Cala describes this as an indifference resulting from antisemitic propaganda both before and during the war, as well as the persistence of religious antisemitism.[33][34] Nechama Tec, who herself survived the war aided by a group of Catholic Poles,[35] noted that Polish rescuers worked within an environment that was hostile to Jews and unfavorable to their protection, in which rescuers feared both the disapproval of their neighbors and reprisals that such disapproval might bring.[36] Tec also noted that Jews, for many complex and practical reasons, were not always prepared to accept assistance that was available to them.[37] Some Jews did not expect help from their neighbors — in fact, some were surprised to have been aided by people who expressed antisemitic attitudes before the war.[38][8] According to Mordecai Paldiel, former Director of the Department of the Righteous at Yad Vashem, Polish landscape at the time contained "a widespread antisemitism that militated against a serious attempt to render succor to the afflicted Jews — difficult as such undertakings would have been in light of the Nazi terror machine which operated with a special brutality against the Polish population." Paldiel writes that the notion that Poles stood only to profit at the disappearance of Jews was "commonplace," and that a feeling of both relief at the disappearance of Polish Jewry was as widespread as the revulsion at the methods employed by the Nazis.[39] A Yad Vashem study of Żegota cites an interview in which the organization's Deputy Chairman, Tadeusz Rek, reports to the representatives of the Polish government-in-exile "that the overwhelming majority of Polish society are hostile toward those extending relief [to the Jews]."[40] Paulsson and Pawlikowski write that overall, such negative attitudes were not a major factor impeding the survival of sheltered Jews, or the work of the rescue organization Żegota.[38][8]''
Thanks--Jacurek (talk) 04:27, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
Group 13 and Żagiew aren't mentioned as far as I can see in the text. Those were organizations who had hindering of Jews being rescued as one of their main goals. They infiltrated Polish and Jewish resistance and tried to find out who hid Jews to report them to German authorities. They should be mentioned in difficulties section.--Molobo (talk) 17:05, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
I've heavily edited the first two paragraphs. The first graph didn't even mention rescue of Jews by Poles, it only mentioned the Nazi invasion and the Holocaust. I had to change that. The second graph was horribly written, it seems by people for whom English is not their native language. We do need to start the 2nd graph with the data, to give the reader immediate size and scope of what we are talking about. That is why I moved the Righteous data and the upper estimate higher. The AK is now being called the biggest resistance movement of WW2, not one of the biggest - see WP article on it. I have also edited the graph to be more concise and readable for Eng Lang WP users. Please discuss with me before changing it.
Jacurek: I really appreciate your input here but please add what you have to say on this talk page first. With respect, your knowledge of the subject is excellent, but your use of English reads like English is your second language - and it is sometimes difficult for Eng Lang readers to understand. If you would give us the honour of sharing your knowledge here first, give me content here on the talk page, and I would be happy to turn it into native English text.
Thanks all Jjaggeropen (talk) 13:59, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Mranistire, I think Jacurek's "Throughout the occupation of Poland (1939–1945), many Polish gentiles at great risk to themselves and their families, rescued Jews from the German Nazis." is better grammatically than your "Throughout the occupation of Poland (1939–1945), many Polish gentiles rescued Jews from the German Nazis, at great risk to themselves and their families." The reason for this is that the second version can be read as suggesting that the "great risk to themselves and their families" was to German Nazis, rather than (the subject) "Polish gentiles". The second version, with a bit of a stretch could also be read that the "great risk..." was to the "rescued Jews", though that's more implausible.
Basically, in well written English it should be clear which is the subject and which is the predicate, and the original version does a better job of that.radek (talk) 19:32, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
I doubt that the pre-War Polish government trained the Palestinian guerilla group Lehi, which was formed in 1940. See that group's article for details. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 17:24, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
"Some of Lehi members had undergone a military training by instructors of Polish Armed Forces in 1938-1939, months before World War II began. In Zofiówka of Wołyń, Podębin near Łódź and forests around Andrychów, they were taught how to use explosives. One of them reported later:
Poles treated terrorism as a science. We have mastered mathematical principles of demolishing constructions made of concrete, iron, wood, bricks and dirt.[14]
Later on, Polish government secretly equipped Lehi members with over 20 000 guns and allowed them to escape to Palestine using Polish airlines and ships.
The group was initially unsuccessful. Early attempts to raise funds through criminal activities, including a bank robbery in Tel Aviv in 1940 and another robbery on 9 January 1942 in which Jewish passers-by were killed, brought about the temporary collapse of the group, and an attempt to assassinate the head of the British secret police in Lod in which three police personnel were killed, two Jewish and one British, elicited a severe response from the British and Jewish establishments who collaborated in an effort to eliminate the underground organisation." Chumchum7 (talk) 21:57, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
In my opinion Jewish collaborationist organizations such as Żagiew and Group 13 should not be in this article at all and for sure not in the lead. Average Polish rescuer did not face threats from Zagiew or Group 13. These organizations did not have country wide reach. They were small and the Germans created them (among other things) to penetrate wings of the Polish Underground involved in the rescue of Jews. Szmalcowniks and blackmailers on the other hand were everywhere. Small towns, big town, cities and villages. The rescuer never even knew if his neighbor would denounce him simply because of fear of being shot by the Gestapo. I will remove Żagiew and Group 13 for now but if you insist on having them here, please do it somewhere within the article and not in the lead. Thanks--Jacurek (talk) 18:11, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Re: your blanket revert
Chumchum7, you're a reasonable person and a good writer. I'm not going to edit-war with you, but please. Did you actually read carefully what I changed, before your reverted my edit? [2] You know very well, that there was a lot of text added to the article gradually in recent time without discussion and consensus, contrary to your edit summary. New additions were made also by you. However, if you read the first few paragraphs without prejudice, you will notice, that they no longer follow any internal logic. That's why I rearranged them. I placed the new content according to subject matter. In the first paragraph, only what relates directly to article title. In the second and third paragraph, I put the remaining content according to similar theme. Nothing was removed. Would you accept my improvements, if I made several smaller edits instead, only one sentence at a time to allow for greater visibility? The article lede reads like a mess. So please, do something. --Matalea (talk) 16:54, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, -Chumchum7 (talk) 07:23, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
http://www.petlaczasu.pl/risk-survival-los/b05043313 Xx236 (talk) 06:25, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
The list should be removed or sourced. Xx236 (talk) 06:30, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
The List of Nazi concentration camps is a sad joke, 6 000 prisoners in Auschwitz-Birkenau, see List of subcamps of Auschwitz.Xx236 (talk) 11:49, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
Arbitrary decisions outside of WP policy guidelines should be treated with caution. The subject area of this article is already well-defined. By the same token, there are articles with inadequate list of resources, such as the Jewish ghettos in Europe listing only two (2) ghettos in section Poland. -- Matalea (talk) 17:56, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
Addendum. I just rewrote the Jewish ghettos in Europe article. I moved all info relating to Poland to only one section with a subsection called the Holocaust in Poland. I added several new references. The article is no longer misleading, even though it needs additional citations for verification of data about other countries. -- Matalea (talk) 01:25, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
An editor made the following comment at Talk:Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust/GA1. I'm copying it here because that GA review is closed. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 23:33, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
I've just asked FPS to take a look at the recent IP edit warring here, so its now an admin-level issue. I've warned said IP, to no avail. Ironically, it appears that the IP has misunderstood the source they are using, Yad Vashem, to try to prove the point that Poles were largely anti-Semitic. In the quote, Yad Vashem is in fact saying that the Polish Righteous data is a minimum because it is based on proven cases with exhaustive evidence and witness testimony only; Yad Yashem is not saying here that the 6000+ should be considered a small amount. This mistake suggests the IP is not an expert on the subject and is coming in with a preconceived agenda and assuming that secondary sources will support it. In principle, there's no problem mentioning Polish anti-Semitism in this article; there is a problem with an opinionated editor wanting to prove their personal point, without considerate discussion for the other editors around them, and presuming to speak for the Jewish people while they're at it. -Chumchum7 (talk) 09:51, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Same/overspill trouble at Anti-Jewish violence in Poland, 1944–1946 -Chumchum7 (talk) 11:29, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
Number of people who were killed for helping Jews in Przemyśl (and close area) is certainly not of 568. There are no people excluding Kurpiel family from Tarnawce who have been awarded post mortem Righteous among the Nations. There are several memory sites of executions in Przemyśl. None of them is dedicated to people who were saving Jews. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marknut (talk • contribs) 14:55, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Piotr Jaroszczak in his history on his websites does not have any sources and any names. Citing such man, who says that Jan Nowak Jeziorański worked for German nazist is just stupid (see www.naszawitryna.pl/jedwabne_311.html). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marknut (talk • contribs) 23:16, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
Piotr Jaroszczak is also known of such opinions like: "carrying out its messianism, still assemble in many different points of the globe a new wars, conflicts and holocausts, bringing them huge financial gains, because their interest has to spin" (about Jews). http://www.kki.pl/piojar/polemiki/holocaust/odp_1.html
My suggestion is to remove such "credible" source.Marknut (talk) 09:56, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
NOTE I've moved this from the main article since it isn't supported by the ref and is full of inaccuracies and ambiguous place names. --JaGatalk 09:16, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
Below is the partial list of Polish communities engaged in collective rescuing of Jews during the Holocaust, as described in literature mentioned. Spelling of some of the names of settlements and counties has been revised in accordance with the currently available geodata. Occasionally, the below links lead to disambiguation pages listing villages known by the same name in the same geographical area of prewar and postwar Poland.
For list of settlements and their gminas in alphabetical order, please use table-sort buttons.
<ref name="Mark Paul">A considerable portion of the quoted list of Polish settlements engaged in collective rescuing of Jews originates from: [http://web.archive.org/web/20070701095957/www.savingjews.org/docs/clergy_rescue.pdf "Wartime Rescue of Jews by the Polish Catholic Clergy. The Testimony of Survivors"] compiled by Mark Paul, with selected bibliography; published by the Polish Educational Foundation in North America, [[Toronto]] 2007</ref>
Also pasting ref. --JaGatalk 09:19, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
This is to confirm this article is B-class. Review for WPPOLAND. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 16:55, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
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The Yad Vashem statistics doesn't say Christian. I bet there were some atheists among them.Xx236 (talk) 08:24, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
Serock belonged probably to powiat warszawski, not to gmina.Xx236 (talk) 08:32, 13 June 2016 (UTC) The whole table is OR and should be removed.Xx236 (talk) 06:12, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
I'm having a hard time communicating with you Xx236. Please spend a little more time studying the content before taking a stab at cheap criticism. At the end of the opening paragraph is a citation with internal and external links which you refused to acknowledge so far. Do you remember what WP:NOTHERE stands for? "Little or no interest in working collaboratively." Poeticbent talk 06:22, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Please be assured that I do appreciate your help. This article was created years ago. Wikilinks change. Kozaki was a correct link at first, but now it is the Kozaki Osuchowskie ... and the only reason I know that is because of the Lublin Voivodeship listed next to it. Available data is imperfect, but the locations can be pinpointed using administrative divisions such as gminas although we don't always have the actual names of gminas, but instead, the neighbouring towns and cities, or regions and voivodeships which can best be summarized as "areas", similar to rejony, tereny, obszary, miasta etc. in the Polish language. If the name is spelled in the source incorrectly, we can fix it. Poeticbent talk 10:00, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
Corrected Poul's texts are available here [4] Xx236 (talk) 10:04, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
They seem to be a part of Pauls reference. Xx236 (talk) 10:12, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
The Zookeeper's Wife Xx236 (talk) 10:16, 15 June 2016 (UTC)
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This list, of some 106 locations, is for the most part un-sourced (or sourced by Mark Paul - who is clearly not a RS per comments in section below) - and is of little value to the article. My reading of previous discussion here (2010 (which also noted unsourced state) and 2012 (in which it was removed), and 2016) doesn't show consensus for inclusion of this. What are the grounds for keeping it?Icewhiz (talk) 14:55, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
My removal of the following two sources - diff, and diff was reverted. Both sources are the same book - even though one of them falsely states Jan Karski as an author (he did write an introduction) - one is the Polish language book, and the second is the English translation.
There are a number of problems with this source. Let's begin with the publisher - Hippocrene Books - which specializes in folklore and ethnic cookbooks (such as Best of Polish Cooking) - so, not quite the publisher of academic texts. Moving on, while she does have a PhD from the Catholic University of Lublin, she is not particularly well published nor cited (note - there is a better published microbiologist with the same name - plwiki entry - so if you go scholar - you need to filter out all the life sciences hits) - nor does it seem does she hold a significant academic post (as of 2006 - wyborcza article on her views on "Jews having fun in the ghetto" - she held a lecturing position in "Higher School of Skills in Kielce" (which seems to mainly do weekend studies - per the city website). Moving a bit onwards, it seems she has quite interesting views about Jews - and it seems she has been called out on it by Poland Stops Ceremony for Author Accused of Anti-Semitism, NY Times (AP reprint) - not only the Jewish community, but it would seem also Polish government officials (yup - the current government). AP leads off with One, Polish author Ewa Kurek, has claimed that Jews had fun in the ghettos during the German occupation of Poland during World War II
when describing her, and notes a response by the Polish government "Andrzej Pawluszek, an adviser to Poland's prime minister, said Wednesday that the award was never a government initiative, but authorities acted to stop an event that would have been divisive."
. per Why Was Historian Who Blames Jews For Complicity with Nazis Considered For Humanitarian Prize?, Forward - "“Deeper research” reveals that Kurek says Jewish perfidy is intrinsic to Jewish law and communal organization."
(not so deep research - you might see this in the video of her speaking above (which I found prior to this article - containing - “Jews behave like a [herd] of lions in a threatening situation,” Kurek says in a YouTube video. “Lions are said to throw the weakest ones to death, to save the rest. And this is the norm among Jews. We Christians, since the beginning of … time, we have one principle: In the situation of a threat, the strong protect the vulnerable. If someone tells you about a Judeo-Christian civilization, then there is no such thing because this [Judaic] law excludes our civilization.”
. Some have noted some subtle aspects to her discourse “Kurek is more subtle than [Holocaust denier] David Irving,” Holocaust scholar Berel Lang told the Forward. “She doesn’t deny the genocide but argues rather that the Jews were complicit with the Nazis in organizing the wartime ghetto system.”
.
In short - we should definitely not be using her as a source in Wikipedia for WWII history.Icewhiz (talk) 15:03, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
The above wall-of-text is a multiple copy-paste by User:Icewhiz first added to Talk:Irena Sendler on 25 April 2018, with no relevancy to this article content. Poeticbent talk 15:31, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
My removal of [6][7][8][9][10] was reverted. These are 3 books authored by Mark Paul (who is somewhat known for authoring such works - at least by anyone searching on-line) - Wartime Rescue of Jews by the Polish Catholic Clergy: The Testimony of Survivors (Polish Educational Foundation in North America), A TANGLED WEB. Polish-Jewish Relations in Wartime Northeastern Poland and the Aftermath (PEFINA Press (acronym of Polish Educational Foundation in North America)), and Patterns of Cooperation, Collaboration and Betrayal: Jews, Germans and Poles in Occupied Poland during World War II (The Polish Educational Foundation in North America). Neither Mark Paul nor The Polish Educational Foundation in North America have a reputation as experts in the field (if at all, there are different reputation issues). Mark Paul (this Mark Paul - there are more notable scholars in other fields) is rarely cited (even though the work being all available online - it is quite easy to find and cherrypick from). Wartime Rescue of Jews by the Polish Catholic Clergy (2015) is cited once per google scholar. A TANGLED WEB. Polish-Jewish Relations in Wartime Northeastern Poland and the Aftermath (2016? At least the last version has that date) doesn't appear in scholar, and nor does Patterns of Cooperation, Collaboration and Betrayal: Jews, Germans and Poles in Occupied Poland during World War II. Other works by Paul are uncited as well. Publication by PEFINA (and online, in what seems to be a PDF that is continually updates - e.g. Patterns is cited in our articles with a date of 2009 - the link currently has a PDF dated (at top) to 2016) - is a WP:SELFPUBLISHed book - and should be excluded per policy.Icewhiz (talk) 15:22, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
"Mark Paul is an independent scholar in Canada, he has written the most exhaustive study of Koniuchy massacre in any language so far." Marek Chodakiewicz [15] GizzyCatBella (talk) 12:07, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
Mark Paul has published a number of articles in Glaukopis and in the book Golden Harvest or Hearts of Gold?: Studies on the Fate of Wartime Poles and Jews, ed. by Marek Jan Chodakiewicz, Wojciech Jerzy Muszyński, and Paweł Styrna (Washington, D.C.: Leopolis Press, 2012). These are scholarly publications that are peer-reviewed by academics and professional historians. According to WorldCat, Glaukopis is subscribed to by at least 49 leading academic libraries (WorldCat lists 49 institutions). Mark Paul’s online publications such as A Tangled Web: Polish-Jewish Relations in Wartime Northeastern Poland and the Aftermath and Wartime Rescue of Jews by the Polish Catholic Clergy: The Testimony of Survivors and Rescuers are meticulously and copiously referenced. They have been cited by many academics and professional historians such as Tillar Mazzeo, Marek Wierzbicki, Bogdan Musial, Eike Lossin, Peter Stachura, Marek Jan Chodakiewicz, M.B. Biskupski. Wartime Rescue of Jews by the Polish Catholic Clergy is listed in the USHMM library catalog as a web resource, with a link to a PDF file: http://catalog.ushmm.org/vwebv/holdingsInfo?searchId=186&recCount=50&recPointer=1&bibId=134788 This is more than sufficient to meet the test of reliability. ALERT TO ADMINISTRATOR Icewhiz appears to have taken it upon himself to purge and delete any reference to Mark Paul’s work he can find. This is being done unilaterally and apparently without authorization. If that is the case, it must be put a stop to and action must be taken for having engaged in improper activity. Here are just a few examples from Rescue of Jews by Poles during the Holocaust: Revision history: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Rescue_of_Jews_by_Poles_during_the_Holocaust&action=history • (cur | prev) 10:34, 24 May 2018 Icewhiz (talk | contribs) . . (116,888 bytes) (-1,290) . . (Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 241#The Holocaust in Poland: Ewa Kurek & Mark Paul - SP:SPS by WP:QS author.) (undo) • (cur | prev) 10:31, 24 May 2018 Icewhiz (talk | contribs) . . (118,178 bytes) (-1,377) . . (Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 241#The Holocaust in Poland: Ewa Kurek & Mark Paul. Karski citation here is actually Kurek - mislabeled.) (undo) • (cur | prev) 10:29, 24 May 2018 Icewhiz (talk | contribs) . . (119,555 bytes) (-555) . . (WP:SPS see Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 241#The Holocaust in Poland: Ewa Kurek & Mark Paul) (undo) • (cur | prev) 10:29, 24 May 2018 Icewhiz (talk | contribs) . . (120,110 bytes) (-12,778) . . (revert - edited wrong ver.) (undo) • (cur | prev) 10:28, 24 May 2018 Icewhiz (talk | contribs) . . (132,888 bytes) (-555) . . (WP:SPS by [WP:QS]] author. SeeWikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 241#The Holocaust in Poland: Ewa Kurek & Mark Paul) (undo) • (cur | prev) 10:27, 24 May 2018 Icewhiz (talk | contribs) . . (133,443 bytes) (+13,333) . . (Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 241#The Holocaust in Poland: Ewa Kurek & Mark Paul - the Karski here is misattributed - this work is by Kurek.) (undo) • (cur | prev) 10:24, 24 May 2018 Icewhiz (talk | contribs) . . (120,110 bytes) (-931) . . (WP:SPS by WP:QS author. See.Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 241#The Holocaust in Poland: Ewa Kurek & Mark Paul) (undo) • (cur | prev) 10:21, 24 May 2018 Icewhiz (talk | contribs) . . (121,041 bytes) (-830) . . (→Bibliography: See Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 241#The Holocaust in Poland: Ewa Kurek & Mark Paul. First of this is Kurek - author mislablled.)(undo) • (cur | prev) 10:21, 24 May 2018 Icewhiz (talk | contribs) . . (121,871 bytes) (-1,646) . . (→References: WP:SPS by WP:QSauthor Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 241#The Holocaust in Poland: Ewa Kurek & Mark Paul) (undo) • (cur | prev) 10:20, 24 May 2018 Icewhiz (talk | contribs) . . (123,517 bytes) (-274) . . (WP:QS author. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 241#The Holocaust in Poland: Ewa Kurek & Mark Paul) (undo) • (cur | prev) 10:18, 24 May 2018 Icewhiz (talk | contribs) . . (123,791 bytes) (-11,029) . . (→Partial list of communities:WP:LISTCRUFT primarily sourced to WP:SPS of WP:QS author Mark Paul. see Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 241#The Holocaust in Poland: Ewa Kurek & Mark Paul) (undo) If you try to undo Icewhiz’s incessant deletions, this is what happens: 3RR Warning[edit source] Your recent editing history at Jedwabne pogrom shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you are reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See BRDfor how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection. Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.Icewhiz (talk) 21:01, 22 May 2018 (UTC)Tatzref (talk) 04:31, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
Some of the famous Japanese visas were produced by Poles, who copied Japan text without understanding. Later many POles from the group were murdered, Sugihara survived the war. People arriving to Japan were helped by ambassador Romer.Xx236 (talk) 13:03, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
http://www.pap.pl/aktualnosci/news,1302813,ambasada-rp-w-szwajcarii-konsul-wystawil-w-latach-40-paszporty-dla-ok-2-tys-zydow.html Xx236 (talk) 13:06, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
Ewa Kurek has documented help by Catholic nuns. Jan Karski has written an introduction to her book. Xx236 (talk) 13:14, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
Many Warsaw Jews died during the 1944 uprising.Xx236 (talk) 13:20, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
They obtained a book and a movie, but still don't deserve to be listed here.Xx236 (talk) 13:28, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
Please select one name, it's the same.Xx236 (talk) 13:32, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
@Piotrus, K.e.coffman, Tatzref, François Robere, GizzyCatBella, and Ealdgyth: (RSN participants) - the following revert restored contentious information sourced primarily to Mark Paul's WP:SPS online/book publications, as well as some information sourced to Ewa Kurek (some of which is misrepresented to Karski - a legitimate scholar - but the referenced book is Kurek's). Mark Paul's writings, being generally being questionably, grossly exaggerate the scope of rescue by Poles - and sourcing a long list of communities which allegedly (quite a dubious claim) engaged in "collective rescuing efforts" (not scattered individuals) in Wikipedia's voice is entering highly dubious (and not accepted in mainstream literature) content to our article - with the list itself being not needed as WP:LISTCRUFT in any event. Your input here welcome.Icewhiz (talk) 08:50, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
References to Mark Paul should not be unilaterally removed with a consensus. Like several others, I do not believe there is any consensus to remove references to Mark Paul's copiously referenced work, especially where the factual information relied on is referenced by him to a source. Mark Paul has been published in scholarly peer-reviewed journals and books, and his online publications have been referred to in publications of many academics and professional historians such as Tillar Mazzeo, Marek Wierzbicki, Bogdan Musial, Peter Stachura, Eike Lossin, Marek Chodakiewicz, M.M. Biskupski. Mark Paul's Wartime Rescue of Jews by the Polish Catholic Clergy is listed in the USHMM library catalog as a web resource, with a link to a PDF file: http://catalog.ushmm.org/vwebv/holdingsInfo?searchId=186&recCount=50&recPointer=1&bibId=134788 The Virtual Shtetl website of POLIN Museum of the History of Polish Jews, a premier Jewish educational center, also refers to Mark Paul's work (e.g., A Tangled Web: https://sztetl.org.pl/pl/miejscowosci/w/1941-wsielub/127-bibliografia/13126-bibliografia; https://sztetl.org.pl/pl/miejscowosci/t/1581-traby/99-historia-spolecznosci/138167-historia-spolecznosci [2 footnotes]) This is more than sufficient to meet the test of reliability.Tatzref (talk) 19:34, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
The ONUS is on the detractor. It is highly unlikely POLIN Museum of the History of Polish Jews, a premier Jewish educational center, would cite "anti-Jewish tracts" that contain "demonstrably false claims". The allegation that Mark Paul promotes myths has been amply debunked. (1) One was advanced by Icewhiz, who denies Jewish overrepresentation among collaborators with the Soviet occupiers of Eastern Poland to the detriment of Poles. This overrepresentation has been substantiated by leading (non-Polish) historians and key eyewitnesses such as Norman Davies, Ben-Cion Pinchuk and Jan Karski, among others. They are hardly fringe or unreliable sources. They easily trump Icewhiz's views. Hands down. No room for debate here. (2) The other alleged myth is based on a patent misreading by Joanna Michlic of Paul Mark's Wartime Rescue of Jews by the Polish Catholic Clergy, which cites what Jewish scholars said about the ungratefulness of some survivors. The work in question canvases a broad spectrum of attitudes and mentions many examples of gratitude. Michlic's extremist views of other historians whom she dislikes and tars (Bogdan Musial, Marek Wierzbicki, Marek Chodakiewicz) have been implicitly rejected by leading (non-Polish) historians in the field such as Timothy Snyder, Yehuda Bauer, and Peter Longerich. They easily trump Michlic. The test of reliability of Mark Paul's work has been more than met. Tatzref (talk) 20:01, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
@GizzyCatBella: The full context is:
This is from pg 10 of Paul's Neighbours on the Eve of the Holocaust [22]. K.e.coffman (talk) 20:43, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
Mark Paul doesn't generalize. He's referring to collaborators among the Jews - the ones described by Dov Levin, Ben-Cion Pinchuk, Norman Davies, and many other historians in Neighbors on the Eve of the Holocaust. By shooting at Polish soldiers, apprehending and denouncing Polish officers and officials, and making lists of political opponents for deportation to the Gulag, they were in fact supporting the common purpose of the Soviet-Nazi alliance, which was no secret at the time. Their newly found friendship was publicized widely. There were also more direct examples of collaboration in Luboml and Kobryn. But all this is besides the point. The views of amateur Wikipedia users are irrelevant at this time. The academics and professional historians who cite Mark Paul's work, as well as POLIN Museum of the History of Polish Jews, a premier educational institution, have spoken. End of matter. The reputable historians cited in Mark Paul's work have also trumped the various attempts to discredit Mark Paul's work in this discussion. But we are now facing a critical juncture. HIGH ALERT. The article has been devastated by deletions made by Icewhiz, carried out in the absence of any consensus, in order to purge all references to Mark Paul. It appears that these deletions can't simply be undone but require manual input. Something must be done about this soon.Tatzref (talk) 02:14, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
This is both indecipherable and bizarre. The Germans and Soviets had a common criminal purpose from August 1939 to June 1941. Thereafter, their paths parted and they advanced their own agenda and purposes. This is rather elementary. A no brainer. Rather than Icewhiz tell us what Mark Paul allegedly wrote, Paul Mark will do it in his own words and let the reader be the judge. Excerpt from the Foreword to Neighbours on the Eve of the Holocaust (http://kpk-toronto.org/wp-content/uploads/SOV-OCC-39-41-UNEDITED-1.doc): "It is important, however, to bear in mind that such collaboration, although a force to be reckoned with, was marginal and unrepresentative of the overall behaviour of both communities. It was the work of a small minority, but one cannot for that reason turn a blind eye to this phenomenon. Apart from collaborators drawn from the margins of society, there were also Jews who assisted Poles (many examples of such help are also cited), and, far more often, those who stood by for various reasons (fear, helplessness, indifference, etc.)—the so-called “bystanders.” Neither the Poles nor the Jews as a collective can be charged with complicity in the atrocities designed and carried out by the Nazi and Soviet regimes."Tatzref (talk) 04:09, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
"The charge—advanced by Jewish historians ... has been authoritatively discredited"[26] also labels the ethnic/religious background of historians he has issue with, even when the cited historian in question - Jan T. Gross - is not exactly Jewish (it also does not seem this was "authoritatively discredited" by any actual published research).Icewhiz (talk) 06:52, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
will be accepted by Engel [here we can readily substitute a litany of names of Jewish historians—M.P.]. He also uses "non-Jewish historians" - in page 25, he laments that
Influenced by such views such as those expressed by Naomi Rosh White and many others, non-Jewish historians have also endorsed this skewed picture of Jewish-Christian relations.Icewhiz (talk) 08:14, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
1. The reference to 1939-1945 is an obvious slip. It was clearly meant to be 1939-1941, which is the subject of the publication. The 1939-1945 timeframe does not appear anywhere else in the publication.
2. The argument isn’t so much a parody of Reder as drawing an analogy. The analogy is supported by scholarly writing mentioned in Mark Paul’s publication. Polish officials, officers, landowners, etc. were attacked not for what they allegedly did, but what they stood for. It was part of the Soviet plans to destroy all vestiges of Polish statehood.
3. Icewhiz’s allegation that Mark Paul invented – contrary to all research – the claim that Jews were able to reclaim thousands of properties after the war under the law “On Abandoned Property,” is simply bogus, and has been exposed as such. Mark Paul cited the most recent research on this topic published by the Polish Center for Holocaust Research (https://www.holocaustresearch.pl/index.php?show=534) and other scholars. These reputable sources fully confirm what the American Jewish Year Book stated in 1947: “The return of Jewish property, if claimed by the owner or his descendant, and if not subject to state control, proceeded more or less smoothly.” Violent confrontations over the return of property were the exception, not the norm.
4. When Icewhiz deleted my text on property restitution – NB he has been deleting my texts systematically since I joined Wikipedia (please check it out) – he added his own: “In the immediate postwar period vast quantities of Jewish property were unclaimed due to many Jews being murdered when they sought restitution of family property and due to Jews fleeing postwar Poland. … many Jews who had fled to the Soviet Union were only repatriated after this date and Jews in displaced persons camps in Germany feared returning to Poland, and those who attempted to do so were usually blocked by the Polish authorities,” which he “lifted” from Weinbaum’s book The Plunder of Jewish Property during the Holocaust, p. 101): “In the immediate postwar period vast quantities of Jewish property were unclaimed – in part due to the fact that owners or their heirs were often murdered when seeking to retrieve their property, and that many others fled the country. … Many of the Polish Jews who had survived in the Soviet Union were only repatriated to Poland after the claims deadline had already past. Others in DP (displaced persons) camps in Germany feared returning to Poland. Moreover, except for individual cases, the Polish authorities blocked the return of Jews from DP camps.” Weinbaum provides no source for these claims in his book.
5. Mark Paul did not misrepresent Gunnar Paulsson’s statement. As anyone can see for themself, he cited Paulsson’s publications verbatim: http://www.savingjews.org/docs/clergy_rescue.pdf (p. 287). At no time did Mark Paul attribute a 300,000 estimate to Paulsson, as falsely alleged. (See also http://kpk-toronto.org/wp-content/uploads/CLERGY-RESCUE-KPK-8.doc)
6. Since Icewhiz posts dwell on labeling reputable Polish historians he doesn’t like as hacks, “nationalists,” or even worse, it is surprising that he takes objection to Mark Paul’s pointing out, from time to time, the national perspective of various authors. That factor is generally recognized in the scholarship on Polish-Jewish relations as often having a bearing on one’s views. Joshua Zimmerman, for example, states in The Polish Underground and the Jews, 1939-1945, “The negative portrayal of the Home Army among professional Jewish historians was made semi-official with the appearance in the early 1980s of The War of the Doomed: Jewish Armed Resistance in Poland, 1942–1944 by the Israeli historian and Holocaust survivor, Shmuel Krakowski, as well as Krakowski’s volume, Unequal Victims, coauthored with Israel Gutman.” Zimmerman goes on to reject many of the views of those “Jewish historians” based on the work of Polish historians.
7. The undeniable bottom line remains the same. At least ten works by Mark Paul have been published in peer-reviewed journals and books. Mark Paul's online work has been referenced by at least seven reputable historians/academics (Marek Wierzbicki, Bogdan Musial, Peter Stachura, Eike Lossin, Marek Jan Chodakiewicz, M.B. Biskupski, Tillar Mazzeo) and by POLIN Museum of the History of Polish Jews, a premier educational centre. This is more than sufficient to meet the test of reliability, and trumps the views of some opposing Wikipedia users, whose specific arguments about the merits of Mark Paul’s scholarship have been amply debunked. Tatzref (talk) 14:52, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
The following claims about Mark Paul’s publications have been debunked several times in Wikipedia talk forums – so please don’t keep repeating them as it won’t make them any stronger: François Robere: he's only published and oft-cited in "Glaukopis" Icewhiz: He isn't oft-cited even there - and he is not published either - he is hosted on the website (at least for these English language tracts) - not published Mark Paul has published a number of articles in the journal Glaukopis, no. 25/26, no. 27, no. 28, no. 30. (This can be readily verified: http://www.glaukopis.pl/index.php/biblioteka-cyfrowa/numery-archiwalne/40-numer-34-nadchodzi) Two of Mark Paul’s studies were published in the book Golden Harvest or Hearts of Gold?: Studies on the Fate of Wartime Poles and Jews, ed. by Marek Jan Chodakiewicz, Wojciech Jerzy Muszyński, and Paweł Styrna (Washington, D.C.: Leopolis Press, 2012): "Rescue of Jewish Escapees from the Treblinka Death Camp" (pp. 117-137) & "Poles and Jews in Poland's Eastern Borderlands in September 1939" (pp. 257-293). Alongside the following academics/professional historians: Marek Jan Chodakiewicz, Peter Stachura, Piotr Gontarczyk, Waldemar Chrostowski, John Radzilowski, Wojciech Jerzy Muszynski These are scholarly publications, peer-reviewed by academics and professional historians. According to WorldCat, Glaukopis is subscribed to by at least 49 academic libraries/institutions. Mark Paul’s published three studies in the collective work The Story of Two Shtetls: Bransk and Ejszyszki: An Overview of Polish-Jewish Relations in Northeastern Poland during World War II. Two Parts. (Toronto & Chicago: The Polish Educational Foundation in North America, 1998). Alongside the following academics from US and Canadian universities: Tamara Trojanowska, Danusha Goska, John Radzilowski Mark Paul’s studies in The Story of Two Shtetls and his online publications -- A Tangled Web: Polish-Jewish Relations in Wartime Northeastern Poland and the Aftermath and Wartime Rescue of Jews by the Polish Catholic Clergy: The Testimony of Survivors and Rescuers -- have been cited by a number of academics and professional historians. The following is a partial list: Tillar J. Mazzeo (Irena’s Children), Marek Wierzbicki (Polacy i Zydzi w zaborze sowieckim), Bogdan Musial (Sowjetische Partisanen: Mythos und Wirklichkeit; Sowjetische Partisanen in Weissrusland), Eike Lossin (Katholische Geistliche in nationalsozialistischen Konzentrationslagern), Peter Stachura (Poland, 1918-1945: An Interpretive and Documentary History of the Second Republic), Marek Jan Chodakiewicz (Between Nazis and Soviets: Occupation Politics in Poland, 1939-1947; After the Holocaust: Polish-Jewish Conflict in the Wake of World War II; Ejszyszki: Pogrom, ktorego nie bylo; Intermarium: The Land between the Baltic and Black Seas), Mieczyslaw B. Biskupski (Rethinking Poles and Jews: Troubled Past, Brighter Future), Myrna Goldenberg (Before All Memory Is Lost: Women’s Voices from the Holocaust), Caryn Mirriam-Goldberg (Needle in the Bone: How a Holocaust Survivor and a Polish Resistance Fighter Beat the Odds and Found Each Other), Tadeusz Piotrowski (The Polish Deportees of World War II: Recollections of Removal to the Soviet Union and Dispersal Throughout the World), Jan M. Piskorski (Die Verjagten: Flucht und Vertreibung im Europa des 20. Jahrhunderts), Mariusz Bechta (Pogrom czy odwet?), Frank Salter (On Genetic Interests: Family, Ethnicity and Humanity in an Age of Mass Migration). Mark Paul’s publications have also been cited in a number of publications of non-academics such as Philip Bialowitz (A Promise at Sobibor), Robert Z. Cohen (Jewish Resistance Against the Holocaust), M.B. Szonert & Maria Szonert-Binienda (World War II Through Polish Eyes: In the Nazi-Soviet Grip). Mark Paul’s publications are also referred to in the Virtual Shtetl website of POLIN Museum of the History of Polish Jews, a premier educational centre.Tatzref (talk) 05:02, 29 May 2018 (UTC) Some additional academics and professional historians who cite Mark Paul's work have been added, as well as some other publications.Tatzref (talk) 14:58, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
"Icewhiz’s allegation that Mark Paul invented – contrary to all research – the claim that Jews were able to reclaim thousands of properties"- I said nothing of the sort - A small fraction of the Jews with property in Poland were indeed able to receive their property back - however the vast majority (barred entry, inheritance laws changes to bar relatives, intimidation and murder) - not - the vast majority taken over by Poles and the Polish state - serious scholars tend to mention the latter - in this case Paul makes a quite clear and glaring omission while mentioning only the extremely small minority of property that was reclaimed. Quite simply - this is a WP:SPS by a highly WP:QS author that has no place on Wikipedia - our policy is quite clear on this matter. It is truly perplexing why we are still rehashing this after the rather clear RS/n - surely if these are details that merit inclusion in Wikipedia, one would expect multiple writings by well established authors publishing in a venue known for reliability to be available as sources.Icewhiz (talk) 07:16, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
Icewhiz (talk) 07:16, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
Bottom line is, we shouldn't use Paul to support controversial claims like the one at the opening of this paragraph. But is Paul being used for that? No. He is primarily used for non-controversial statement. We can review them, one by one, and indeed, preferably remove cites to him and replace them with better research. Let's see if any controversial stuff remains. What I oppose is removing a non-controversial claim, referenced to MP, and either replacing it with cite needed, or removing the entire sentence/section/whatever from the article. I see no grounds for that. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:38, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
As for what Icewhiz said or didn't say about postwar property restitution, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Anti-Jewish_violence_in_Poland,_1944%E2%80%931946: "there were a number of successful restitution cases (though the Polish government subsequently nationalized the property)". So the reclaimed properties were nationalized? The topic of property restitution, based on actual records of courts that processed restitution claims, was undertaken by Polish scholars, most recently by Alina Skibińska and Łukasz Krzyżanowski, scholars associated with the Polish Center for Holocaust Research (Centrum Badań nad Zagładą Żydów), Poland's premier and widely acclaimed Holocaust research center. Their in-depth regional studies were published in a massive 2014 book Klucze i kasa: O mieniu żydowskim w Polsce pod okupacją niemiecką i we wczesnych latach powojennych 1939–1950, edited by Jan Grabowski and Dariusz Libionka, which deals Jewish property issues. These studies complement other regional studies by historians such as Krzysztof Urbański, Adam Kopciowski, Grzegorz Miernik, Sebastian Piątkowski, and others. Their findings are accurately set out by Mark Paul. Thousands upon thousands of claims were processed expeditiously between May 1945 and the end of 1948. 531 successful applications, sometimes for multiple properties, were processed in two county towns of Lublin province alone: 291 in Zamość and 240 in Włodawa. Do the math. In almost all cases, these properties were then sold to Poles. They were not subsequently nationalized. According to the American Jewish Year Book, which closely monitored conditions in Poland, “The return of Jewish property, if claimed by the owner or his descendant, and if not subject to state control [i.e., nationalized], proceeded more or less smoothly.” American Jewish Year Book, 5708 (1947–1948), vol. 49 (Philadelphia: The Jewish Publication Society of America, 1947), 390. The existence of these procedures was well known, and Jewish law firms and agencies outside Poland specialized in submitting applications on behalf of non-residents. Given the choice between the views of Icewhiz and Mark Paul, the latter clearly comes on top. At least 13 academics and professional historians have cited Mark Paul's work. Wikipedia articles contain all sorts of references to less reliable and less cited sources.Tatzref (talk) 14:58, 29 May 2018 (UTC)
References
Please verify sources regarding Ignaców, Lublin County.Xx236 (talk) 06:00, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
Were the food rations so bad since the beginning? So why did the Jews accept their transfer to ghettos? Or did the rations deteriorate? Xx236 (talk) 06:43, 28 May 2018 (UTC)