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The article presently lists Maryland as 6 million acres, but every source I've checked cites a high figure. Alan Taylor, American Colonies, p.136 states that the land grant was "about twelve million acres." Present-day Maryland is about 6,700,000 acres, but it is smaller than the original Maryland colony because it lacks the territory granted to the District of Columbia as well as disputed territory that eventually became part of Pennsylvania. I will edit the article to reflect this ambiguity. Drfryer 14:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
It's rather ignorant, but not unexpected, of the last reverter to try and erase Irish history and the original ethno-religious nature of Maryland. Whilst the rest of the colonies were British Protestant, Maryland was Irish Catholic. Geez, you'd think Wikipedia told the truth. Hasbro 18:08, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
English Nation was also used in reference to British government policy in Scotland with Jacobites and the Ulster Plantation (similar prejudice is highlighted in the Braveheart film with Mel Gibson, where Longshanks purportedly meant to "breed Scots out of Scotland"). Your archaic justification was based on quasi-racist (ever hear of Anglicising Irish surnames?) imperial bigotry back then and is highly inappropriate for a Wikipedia article. You stand to offend too many people with such obsolete, ethnocentric notions. The conditions of the colony as written, were also meant to seem as though it would be more palatable for the English Parliament to tolerate Irish Catholics having their own colony in the midst of all the Protestant ones. The King's words were to soften their demeanor, since the Protestants were attempting to outlaw any Catholicism at all in the King's dominions. Nevertheless, please don't get fundamentalist with the one source. You know what it was about, so don't pull this crap. Hasbro 18:26, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Hey, you get a grip. Realize that simply relying on English notions of Ireland as "English domain" simply because of a shared monarch always dictated under English policies, doesn't deny the Irish their own place. English and subsequently British monarchs held possession of Ireland and thus, their colony founded by an IRISH LORD. Maybe it would be easier for you as an American to understand, if Ireland was still a kingdom and its peerage still held sway as it once did, as they did in Calvert's time. Like I said, quit the fundamentalism. You know full well that the affairs were more than that simple segment of a sentence. You know the English actions in Ireland and how the Irish feel about it even today. Don't play ignorant about it; it is even a constant feature of Irish American complaints about England. It is quite clear that you care only about winning on this article's version, rather than the truth if you read the history of Ireland and who OWNED MARYLAND from its inception. By the way, has it occurred to you to read the section on Baltimore's count palatine powers? This enabled the Calverts to circumvent the Church of England's ties to the monarch and thus, Catholicism was officially tolerated by the state. It was a special exception done away with during the Cromwellian regime. Just look around Wikipedia and all this is there. Hasbro 18:44, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
So, you deny that Maryland was a proprietary colony founded by Irish Catholic nobles? Hey, your ranting is an exclusivist perception that focuses singularly on "Anglo-Saxonist" imperialism at the expense of the Irish. You deny the fact that the Calverts were palatine lords and had extralegal powers. Cromwell's government also denied the Irish their own place, by abolishing the Irish kingdom and supplanting their Parliament with the English one. Does that sound NPOV to you? How fair is it to the Irish? Please provide a reliable source which excludes the Founding Family of Maryland and the entire purpose of their excursion as separate from any other colony considered part of the quasi-British Empire of the time. I'm not denying the English nature of it at all. In fact, I already told you the English component and all historians will acknowledge the ancient English investment in Irish affairs. That does not cancel out the intrinsic differences qualifying the Lords Baltimore's colonial venture from those others. Hasbro 19:10, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
His public status as a lord was Irish and Catholic. For instance, Richard Neville (the Kingmaker) was known as "Warwick" rather than Neville. I changed the language to rectify this. Hasbro 19:18, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Let's not get genetically ethnicist on this. We all know that English and Scottish born in Britain had colonised Ireland, but naturalised and became Irish ("more Irish than the Irish themselves" in case of the Catholics at least, even if not the Protestants). In fact, Calvert epitomised the Irish Catholic identity as it was solidifying--much like the British nation was formed out of two former separate countries. Hasbro 19:25, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
The essential tough point is in coming up with a sentence that defines them as Anglo-Irish/Irish Catholic, at least as a compromising language to satisfy the background of the subject. Hasbro 19:28, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Do you not understand naturalisation? America did not exist in that time. The Calverts resigned English offices and lived off of their Irish lordship, which included their subsidiary title to Maryland and Avalonia. Genetic origins are separate from nationality at birth. Don't believe me? Have you heard of the Mexican-American border problem? Hasbro 19:52, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Please provide a citation that says any other Anglo-Irish lord or Scottish-Irish lord is not Irish. Increasingly, the problem remains that Victorian Anglo-Saxonism emphasised the Teutonic side of all colonies and thus the quasi-Celtic culture (the Calverts themselves embraced the Irish situation) has been left aside in the wake of it all. This has caused those people of that heritage to complain at being pushed aside. Well, Cromwell pushed them aside forcefully in Ireland and his adherents did the same in the colonies when Annapolis became the capital. I can see the forest for the trees, but you rely on stereotypes of the English dominant influence to obliterate all other ethnic qualities which have accompanied England. I therefore, am disgusted at the amount of ethnocentrist dialogues presented by you lot here on this talk page. I'm beginning to think that intellectuals do not work these pages and that there are more of those immersed in pop culture presentations of history. I've almost had enough of it. Give me some more and you'll have your wish--I'll leave and you'll win by sheer numbers. I do not intend to be part of your herd. Say those are personal attacks, but it feels like other parts of me I wish to claim are denied. I'm American and count Scottish and Irish just about equal to my primary English origins. I don't need you to diminish them because your Anglophilia blots out the rest. That's your debilitating problem and I will have none of it. Have a nice life. Hasbro 20:00, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Not only are there overbearing Anglophiles who want to diminish the Irish contribution to America's founding (e.g. Barons Baltimore or James Hoban), but there are ethnic purists like yourself who wish to strike "all foreigners such as English or Scottish" in the cause of a "United Ireland". Come on! The Calverts did not have any status in the English Parliament, only the Parliament of Ireland. How can you dispute that legality? The Calverts voluntarily sought to withdraw from the developing British Protestant standard, whilst "going native" as it is called in reference to British who assimilate to Irish customs and culture, including religion. There was little difference between Lords Baltimore and any other ancestral English peer which acclimated to Irish politics and their situation. It happened under the Normans and Plantagenets, whilst it was present in the last Yorkists who rose against Henry Tudor. That this continued to be a somewhat popular way for Englishmen to abandon their English identity over into Stuart and even Hanoverian times is proof that the Calvert situation is no different, minus the religious element that eventually proved to be the image we have today of Republican Irish--Irish Catholics. Because of the British ties they kept, the Calverts were Unionists in the modern sense of the term. I understand that you all wish to apply some sort of "absentee landlord" status to these men, but the essential issue is that they embraced a stereotype apart from that, in respect to the British/Irish drama which has continued to unfold in Northern Ireland today. I am ethnically American. You may see fit to call that bullshit, but the fact remains that 1776 means for something that transcends previous ancestries elsewhere. The Calverts were granted Irish citizenship or subject status, or else they could not claim their barony; who here has sources to deny that claim? Y'all like to split hairs, when seeing the forest for the trees would allow you to note how those Calvert folks acquired a part of the collective identity most Irish-Americans themselves hold to be true about their own status, save for virulent Anglophobia. Non-noble American Calvert descendents and relatives were completely isolated from the insurgent movement which led to the 19th century UK, which ensured that they are rather naive about their own diminished statuses. Hasbro 03:03, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Identifying Calvert as Irish appears to be bogonic, but I see no attempt at all to justify the claim that the settlers were Irish. Mangoe 21:22, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
That's not the point. The point is the Calvert family's social standing in Ireland vis a vis that in England, or Britain. Hasbro 17:16, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Avalonia and Maryland were founded for the Calverts and their related Catholic/Recusant families, with most prospective unrelated settlers being Protestant. The founders of Maryland were forced by necessity to permit Protestants (e.g. coup d'etat); this tactic was contemporaneous to King James II's reign. Nobody doubts that they did it because Protestant pressure forced their hands. The fact that you can talk about this as if you know something, doesn't impress me. You obviously do not in fact know what you are talking about at all. To be frank, it appears that you are talking out of your asses and wish to use sheer force of numbers to vanquish dissent. Hasbro 03:10, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
There are many things which you claim I have said aren't true and vice versa with my position about you. If you refuse to be personally accountable for your own actions, perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to call on others to rectify their own. Come on and cite all the claims you lot have made to contradict my statements here, or is that above you? Thanks... Hasbro 03:31, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
You repeatedly obfuscate the point. Lords Baltimore were Irish politically and govermentally, subject to the Kings of Ireland and not to the Kings of England or Scotland or Great Britain in right of their Irish peerage. That alone qualifies their status as Irish politicians, even if George Calvert was originally an English secretary of state who resigned his offices there. What is your problem with accepting official government and political convention, as they existed in those times? Don't get revisionist on this, with genetic/tribal origins interfering with social status as Irish lords (who said they had to be genetically Gaelic to be Irish?). You're obviously ignoring past conditions of Englishmen becoming lords in Ireland and becoming primarily affiliated with their newfound landscapes. The question is, why would you seek to create a division between the people and their peerage identity? All social conventions at the time considered him Lord Baltimore of County Longford, not George Calvert of Kiplin--that was his prior condition before accepting the lordship. You would want to dismiss the point about the Baltimores being the only Irish peers to have had proprietary colonies in the British Empire, to pretend like my edits have no substance whatsoever. It's just trivia that Irish people (e.g. Irish Wikipedians or browsers) might like to hear, as opposed to Anglophiles who insist that it was all an English or British issue and/or Irish purists who insist they never had been allowed opportunities to express themselves in the British Empire except as unfortunate subjects abused by Penal Laws. Those are agendas I do not share. This is just general, background info that you half acknowledge and try to squelch in the same breaths. Try not to do so. The coup d'etat is discussed here: [3] & [4] There is no need to split hairs about the Catholic nature of the Calverts and their intermarried families, associated with the Irish peerage and Irish Catholic struggles. That is symbolic enough to be interpreted as an Irish Catholic-oriented colonial venture. Hasbro 17:16, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Who cares about absentee landlordism? Conditions in their contemporary era were much different. Recall that Angevin kings of England lived and died in France. That does not deny their English status. The fact that you would dispute this for other nobles in lower rungs (even though the Baltimores were feudal/palatine lords) is clear evidence that you don't understand aristocratic conventions as they existed. Anybody here at the Wikipedia who edits on aristocratic and royal titles as well as mediaeval history can and will support my statements. The fact that you are ignorant of it is of no consequence to the standing issues. If they (Proteus, John Kenney etc) had come by here, they would know the position I am raising and not ask so many questions. It appears that you are way out of your league. Hasbro 17:16, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The issue is that Maryland was a microcosm of a dying age of English aristocrats fleeing Britain for Irish refuge; these affairs were embodied within the Calvert experience. All it takes is perception; you either have it or don't. Maybe this is a POV issue, rather than what you and Vary below me seem to think is more important. I would gladly resign arguing in favour of it being classed a NPOV dispute, rather than otherwise. Please let me know what you think. Hasbro 19:11, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
No, my friend. Perception is POV, a different ballgame. It is evident that you use your own perception to judge a source you yourself just came across. How is it that merely your narrow view of the issue is to stand for anybody else's takes on the subject? How selfishly arrogant. Hasbro 19:26, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
How could you deny the Catholic Baltimore presence in Irish government? Calverts did not have to be native Irishmen to be considered Irish governmentally and they were Catholic to boot. They were not part of the Ulster Plantation, which some think qualifies those people as British in anachronistic depictions of Irish orientation vis a vis British loyalty. No, the Calverts did not represent the Protestant Ascendancy and "foreign domination". They were sort of in a grey area; one may see it either way, but a transitional stage seems most appropriate and best compromise. I'd like to see some joint language upheld, outlining the broadest inclusion of adjectives about the whole thing. Simply one or the other won't do. This is a content dispute because of NPOV problems, nothing more or less. Simply enough, I justify my perception of what we are going through by your own admissive statements apart from the red herring you allude to in regards to "citing sources". Hasbro 19:22, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
My maternal family from Bristol became Anglican Irish baronets under King Charles I of Ireland for service in Ulster, although my branch was from a younger son and did not ever get the baronetcy. The essential issue is that they obtained a new identity, culturally attached to the Irish issues and the British ones were vacated from their lives as a result.
Lords Baltimore would undoubtedly be conjoined with Irish issues as opposed to British issues if they were a Duke of Albany for instance, except that the Albanys had also been Earl of Ulster and that made them responsible for maintaining an Irish presence as well. When I brought up the Plantagenet Angevins, it was to remark on the point of government interests and political identification--regardless of primary residence or birthplace.
If you cannot understand an earlier era of Ireland, then perhaps George W. Bush being born in New Haven and attending Yale University in Connecticut but becoming Texas governor and then campaigning for presidency based upon his state of residence and especially Texas oil interests must delineate the situation about the Calverts compared to the Bushes (Southern Baptist support, instead of Yankee secularism etc). If you still do not understand, then God help you. Hasbro 17:52, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Didn't Calverts adopt the Irish Catholic cultural scene, as perhaps an exclave or subculture in the British Empire? Their case was an exception to the stereotypes of British individuals in Ireland, since they did not have British offices whilst carrying their name nor did they carry out British policies--they were Irish lords just as much as the next guys and shared similar political, financial and religious views. Like stated above, they were known as Lords Baltimore (George Calvert, 1st Lord Baltimore) of County Longford. George was Sir George Calvert of Kiplin in the County of Yorkshire beforehand, but to apply that later on would be anachronistic and violate conventions. Hasbro 19:36, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
So Lords Baltimore did not represent an anachronistic segment of Irish society, when aristocrats had been English ancestrally but Catholic religiously? Their existence contradicts the policies sought by Elizabeth and especially the Ulster Plantation, but one cannot deny the situation. If the Protestants had not pressured Calvert to leave Ireland for America in the first place, where else do you think he would live? Would he spend his whole life in England and disregard his possessions in Ireland and America, as was done with the position as English Secretary of State? It is clear which path they took. Hasbro 19:58, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Right, they were an anachronistic version thereof. They were however, associated with those people by virtue of personal interest rather than date of their entrance into Irish affairs. They were not the new Protestant upper class, even if they themselves were new lords. Hasbro 20:23, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The fact that George Calvert was made a peer of Ireland most certainly does not indicate that his family was Irish. Being a member of the Peerage of Ireland certainly does not make one Irish, and, in fact, a fairly high percentage of such peers never went to Ireland at all, and some even had no connection to Ireland. I would think that one should look at the specific cases:
From these biographies, it does not seem appropriate to me to call either of these men Irish. Both were born and raised in England, attended university in England, and seemingly spent most of their lives in England. That they had Irish titles and owned land in Ireland seems irrelevant. That they were Catholic was entirely unrelated to whether they were Irish - they were pretty clearly English Catholics, and George Calvert's family, the ODNB indicates, had in fact been recusants in Yorkshire in the 16th century. I don't see how one can justify referring to the Calverts as Irish. john k 19:25, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
[This posted after an edit conflict] Having read the above discussion more closely, and seen that Kmusser has already largely made these points, it seems to me that Hasbro's point is essentially based on a sophistry - the basic position seems to come down to the idea that an Irish peer is "politically and governmentally" Irish, whatever that means. This seems entirely indefensible to me. Obviously, the peerage itself is a peerage granted by the king in his role as King of Ireland, rather than his role as King of England, but this doesn't serve to make a person Irish. The Dukes of Richmond are Dukes of Aubigny in France, and the Earl of Arran, a Scottish regent in the 16th century, was made Duke of Chatelherault in France. But that doesn't make these people French, surely? Looking back to the early Plantegenets seems like a non sequitur in this regard. I think most people would agree that while Henry II and Richard I were Kings of England, they would probably best be described as "French" in nationality. But it's irrelevant. Being King of England is not at all like being Baron Baltimore in Ireland. The Lords Baltimore were, I suppose, qualified to sit in the Irish House of Lords. It seems unlikely, though, that they ever did so. They also owned some land in Ireland, but apparently only lived there between 1625 and 1627. Other than this, I fail to see how they have any connection to Ireland at all.
Their Catholicism is completely unrelated. George Calvert was granted land in Ireland before he converted to Catholicism, with specific Anti-Catholic restrictions. It actually had to be regranted to him without said restrictions after his conversion. He was given land in Ireland in spite of his Catholicism, not because of it. He was an English absentee landlord in Ireland who happened to convert to Catholicism, not an Irishman. john k 19:40, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand your point here. George Calvert never disowned England. He was granted an Irish peerage and briefly moved to Ireland. he later returned to England, and died there. His son never left England, apparently. The Calverts were English Catholics, as the Catholic heritage of George Calvert's family suggests. How can he be rejecting his English roots when, by converting to Catholicism, he is actually upholding the old traditions of his Yorkshire family? What does making a marriage alliance with Lord Arundell have to do with embracing Irish culture? You are making some kind of strange integral connection here between Catholicism and Irishness, but it's just not there. And most of what you are saying seems to be based on assumptions. You have yet to present any actual evidence for whether the Calverts viewed Ireland differently from other English landlords due to their Catholicism. You can't just assert things based on vague hunches. john k 20:03, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. No, George Calvert was not the Duke of Norfolk. But he had a lot more in common with the Duke of Norfolk than he did with the O'Neill Mór. Cecil Calvert married Lord Arundell of Wardour's daughter, and surely Lord Arundell is quite comparable to the Duke of Norfolk or the Earl of Shrewsbury? What Irish figure is even comparable to Baltimore? Most of the remaining Old English nobility, e.g. the Earl of Kildare, the Earl of Ormond, had become Protestants at this time. john k 20:30, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
In 1650, the population was 4500. The population in 1700 was 25,000, and 130,000 by 1750. http://www.socyberty.com/History/The-Maryland-Colony.8034 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nitpyck (talk • contribs) 00:55, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Cresap's War is completely missing from this article. Toddst1 (talk) 01:22, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
Since Maryland is in the South, it has a very warm climate. The winters are very mild. The summers were very hot and humid, therefore spreading disease. The warm weather was wonderful to grow crops. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.56.55.168 (talk) 23:05, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
The word "province" was never part of the official name of any of the thirteen British colonies that later formed the United States, yet nine of the titles of the thirteen articles on those colonies include "province". All nine articles should be moved and retitled. WCCasey (talk) 19:42, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
See the complete debate at Talk: Thirteen Colonies. WCCasey (talk) 01:18, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
This article is full of minor typos, including word drops, grammatical errors and laughably erroneous dates. Someone with more expertise on this subject than I can claim should do a thorough edit. Ftjrwrites (talk) 01:33, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
copying the whole topic into the lede is not an improvement 00:43, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
In Maryland, Lord Baltimore wanted to create a haven for English Catholics and show that Catholics and Protestants could live together peacefully in matters of religion. Cecil Calvert was himself a Catholic, a political setback because in the 17th century Roman catholics were considered enemies. He also hoped to turn a profit on the new colony. The Calvert family recruited Catholics and Protestant settlers for Maryland, luring them with land and religious toleration. To try to gain settlers, Maryland used what is known as the headright system, which originated in Jamestown. Settlers were given 50 acres of land for each person they brought into the colony, whether as settler, indentured servant, or slave. Of the 200 or so first settlers who traveled to Maryland on the ships Ark and Dove, the majority were Protestant. On November 22, 1633, Lord Baltimore sent the first settlers to the new colony, and after a long voyage with a stopover to resupply in Barbados, the Ark and the Dove landed on 25 March 1634 which was celebrated as "Maryland Day" at Blackistone Island, later known as St. Clement's Island, off the northern shore of the Potomac River, upstream from the Chesapeake Bay and Point Lookout. The new settlers were led by Lord Baltimore's younger brother Leonard Calvert, whom Baltimore had said to serve to be governor of the new colony.
According to article on the Maryland flag, this is the flag associated with the Province of Maryland:
Whereas the flag presented for this article is the 1707−1776 flag for British America:
I would propose correcting the flag displayed in this article or showing both flags on the article page. There doesn't seem to be any official flag for Maryland prior to 1904 though.
Nicole Sharp (talk) 21:32, 23 March 2022 (UTC)
In 1711, the Colony of Maryland created an Indian Reservation for the Indian River Indians (Nanticoke) that lasted until 1743. Where is it mentioned in the article? Stevenmitchell (talk) 07:34, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
This section relied far to heavily on the outdated The American Heritage Book of Indians. It also contained numerous errors. For example, the claim that there were 300 Susquehannock in the Wyoming Valley in 1878 has absolutely no factual basis. Nor were the Susquehannock called the Conestoga in the 17th century. This exonym was applied to the group of Seneca and Susquehannock who established a village on the Conestoga River c. 1690, and who were later massacred by the Paxton Boys. The section has been rewritten and reliable sources have been cited. The article as a whole needs more information about the Province of Maryland's relationship with Indigenous groups particularly the Piscataway. Griffin's Sword (talk) 22:16, 21 October 2023 (UTC)