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I must have lost a point somehere, but isn't the knight on g5 ? How can it jump to g4 ? Is there aomething wrong somewhere ? (if what's wrong is in my head, I'd be glad to know what... ^^;; )
I have been Googling for a while and haven't found anything saying that "perpetual check used to be in the laws of chess". The best I could find was a mention by Staunton that it is a special case of the threefold repetition rule (which is the same status perpetual check has now - a tactic, not an independent drawing method). However, I haven't found a citable source saying there was never such a rule (just a lot of forum posts). I don't discount that whoever said there used to be a perpetual-check rule might have had some basis for saying that, so I am asking for a source citation.JoeJust 21:49, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
but it doesn't specifically list perpetual check. However, the way it is worded seems to imply that there had been a perpetual check rule. I'll look for older rulebooks. Bubba73 (talk), 22:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)...commonly known as the draw "by repetition of moves." It includes perpetual check
Additional information: on a chess newsgroup, someone said that the 1951 edition of "The Offical Blue Book and Encyclopedia of Chess" by Kenneth Harkness, page 51 states
the old rule covering draw by perpetual check has been abandoned. A player who can subject his opponent's King to an endless series of checks can force a third repetition of the position and claim the draw.
. However, I don't have a copy of that book to confirm it.
Also, the 1940 book How to play Chess Endings by Eugene Znosko-Borovsky, page 259 says "Thanks to perpetual check, Black succeeds in drawing the game." I think there is ample evidence that perpetual check was once a rule. Bubba73 (talk), 14:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn't set much store on the Reinfeld quote. Explanations of the rules of chess outside chess rulebooks are often inaccurate in this kind of subtle detail. The Znosko-Borovsky quote has absolutely nothing to do with the question of whether perpetual check was ever a rule. For example, the same book probably says something like, Because he reaches a Philidor position, Black succeeds in drawing the game. But nobody would assume that this means that there is (or used to be) a rule that says that, if a Philidor position is reached, the game is automatically drawn. Dricherby 13:56, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
. Bubba73 (talk), 03:46, 7 June 2007 (UTC)the old rule covering draw by perpetual check has been abandoned. A player who can subject his opponent's King to an endless series of checks can force a third repetition of the position and claim the draw.
The article gives a slightly erroneous impression about this game, actually White's best outcome is a draw following 12.Kxc5 (moves following that other than those actually played lead to material disadvantage [13.Qg4?] or mate [14.Be8?? etc.]). As written in the article and in the caption for the position it seems to be implied that Black just manages to salvage a draw after White's 16th move. Mallocks 15:41, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
The example pic with the queen is wrong. The black king can block with a pawn move to G6, stopping perpetual check. The pic needs to be altered/removed/replaced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.4.178.155 (talk) 03:41, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. 160.39.226.24 (talk) 03:46, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I cut this example from the article:
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This is a draw but not necessarily a draw by perpetual check; white can avoid the checks and still draw the game by a sequence like this:
You can confirm this by entering the original position (8/6P1/8/8/q2Q4/2K5/8/7k b - - 0 0) to the Nalimov Tablebase server. Gdr 19:47, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Is this a normal meaning of "perpetual check"? That is, it doesn't mean "inescapable sequence of checks" but "sequence of checks that can only be escaped with disadvantage?" If this is the case, then the example could be restored to the article with an explanation and a reference to a chess writer who uses the phrase with this meaning. Gdr 11:39, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
No-one doubts, I think, that this position has perpetual-check-like features. I have three questions: (1) Can we verify that chess writers use the term "perpetual check" to include positions like this? In particular, what does Speelman say in the cited work? (2) How common is it for chess writers to use the term broadly? Is it a majority or minority position? Can we find examples other than Speelman? (3) Even if we can find several chess writers who use the term broadly, is it a good idea for pedagogical reasons to place this example second in the article? Might it not be better towards the end, with an introduction along the lines of "some chess writers, e.g. X and Y, define the term more broadly, including positions where a sequence of checks can be escaped, but the escape leads to disadvantage for the escaping player." Gdr 12:51, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Yes, that sounds like a good way to phrase it. Gdr 15:28, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Moved from the article page: "This is for anyone who looks at this page, but if I'm not mistaken, when the Queen moves to F5, the pawn at G7 can just move to G6, blocking the Queen and actually preventing perpetual check. Would anyone like to provide a better example of perpetual check? "
h in step 3 should be p for pawn--L
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We should probably give an example of perpetual attack / perpetual pursuit that is not check, come to think of it. A nice study is this one by S. Birnov (1928) given in Seirawan's Winning Chess Tactics). 1.a6 Bxc4 2.e4+! (restricting the bishop to half the diagonal) 2...Kxe4 3.a7 Bd5 4.c4 Ba8 5.Kb8 Bc6 6.Kc7 Ba8 and the perpetual pursuit is achieved. (An immediate 1.e4+? fails to 1...Ke5! 2.a6 Bh7 3.a7 Bxe4 and the pawn is stopped.) Double sharp (talk) 08:56, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
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P.S. Also possible is reciprocal pursuit when both sides have nothing better than to chase each other. See the study to the right. I'd like to add it (probably without the lead-in), if I can find an actual sourced annotation for what's going on. Mainline from Roycroft's The Chess Endgame Study: A Comprehensive Introduction (it's #375 there): 1.f7 Bd6+ 2.Kb2 Nh6 3.f8=Q+ Bxf8 4.Nxf8 Rf4 5.Ng4 Nxg4 and the pursuit starts: 6.Ne6 Re4 (6...Rf6 7.Nc7+ Kb7 8.Nd5 and 9.hxg4) 7.Ng5 (7.Nc5? Rxc4 8.Nd7 Rd4 9.Nb6+ Kb7 10.Kc3 Rd8 11.Nc4 Nh6; 7.Nc7+? Kb8 8.Na6+ Ka7 9.Nc5 Rxc4 and wins) 7...Re5 8.Nf3 Rf5 9.Nd4 Rf4 10.Ne6 Re4 11.Ng5 and drawn. Double sharp (talk) 09:04, 5 October 2021 (UTC)
Larry Kaufman's Kaufman's New Repertoire for Black and White uses "perpetual 'check' to the queen" to refer to such a perpetual pursuit in his opening analysis of the Marshall: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 0-0 8.c3 d5 9.exd5 Nxd5 10.Nxe5 Nxe5 11.Rxe5 c6 12.d4 Bd6 13.Re1 Qh4 14.g3 Qh3 15.Qf3 Bg4 16.Qg2 Qh5 17.Be3 Rae8 18.Nd2 Re7 19.a4 Rfe8 20.axb5 axb5 21.Bxd5 cxd5 22.Qf1 f5 23.f3 Bh3 24.Qxb5 f4 25.Bf2 fxg3 26.hxg3 Bd7 27.Qf1 Bh3 28.Qd3 Bf5 and there is nothing better than to repeat. Double sharp (talk) 23:22, 29 April 2023 (UTC)