Australia: Western Australia / Noongar C‑class Low‑importance

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Languages C‑class High‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Languages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of languages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LanguagesWikipedia:WikiProject LanguagesTemplate:WikiProject Languageslanguage articles C This article has been rated as C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

This is an excellent start level article on the background of the Noongar language in which I am very interested. Has anyone done a linguistic analysis of the phonemics of this language? John D. Croft (talk) 09:04, 6 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Birak/Bunuru = Hot/Dry seasons (December January/ Febuary March) ^[1]
• Gurda = Heart^[2]
• Gwaba = Good^[3]
• Humpy = dwelling^[4]
• Kardang = Brother
• Mammul = Son^[5]
• Ngooyoong = sugar^[6]
• Ngilgee = Girls name^[7]
• Noorook = Egg^[8]
• Thirroul = Valley^[9]
• Tunak = 'Twenty Eight' parrot^[10]
• Wa-dung = Crow^[11]

Spelling of many Aboriginal words is disputed^[12], although phonetic spelling is generally prefferred. Tradimus (talk) 08:54, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

On that subject: There are lists, with recommended orthography and pronunciation, for species of plants, birds and mammals, produced by Ian Abbott. I will add these later tonight. —— cygnis insignis 11:45, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Tradimus: I added some notes on Abbott's published lists, does this address some of your concerns. There is some discussion of orthography and accuracy in the paper, should be of interest to you. — cygnis insignis 06:15, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

On that subject: Not sure where you added things. I am pretty comfortable with spelling inherited from Inglesh, Djerman and Doetch. Feel free to add a word list. My point is that there are now so many sources that a wiki list is possible. The peak Noongar authority is encouraging access with dictionaries posted themselves and in Rose Whitehall dictionaryTradimus (talk) 14:27, 13 September 2018 (UTC)Tradimus (talk) 14:29, 13 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Tradimus: I added wordlists in this revision, which you can see in the page history tab. I haven't converted that information into a list, only incorporating it into the articles on the species; it is a good idea though. — cygnis insignis 14:32, 13 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Cygnis insignis: Ian Abbott is only one of many sources. A word list has been started in the Noongarpedia at [[1]] Perhaps an administrator can check these links are appropriate and delete our comments. Tradimus (talk) 14:23, 14 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Refs

It seems as if the preferred spelling of the language is now Noongar (see article and AIATSIS - Noongar/Nyoongar), and we have the people at Noongar people. Does anyone mind if I move this article? Or go ahead, anyone else! (Usually I just move to the preferred AIATSIS spelling myself these days, but as I know there are several active WA editors, thought I'd ask the question here first). Laterthanyouthink (talk) 08:41, 19 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I would support a move, "Noongar" seems to be supplanting any other orthography, eg. Hopper—when discussing "Sandplain and Kwongkan; historical meanings …" Hopper, S.; Lambers, H. (2014), "9. Human relationships with and use of Kwongan plants and lands", in Lambers, Hans (ed.), Plant life on the sandplains in southwest Australia : a global biodiversity hotspot : kwongan matters, Crawley, Western Australia UWA Publishing, pp. 287–90, ISBN 978-1-74258-564-2—presumably thought twice about using the spelling "Noongar". ~ cygnis insignis 12:46, 19 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Cygnis insignis. I would think that this one is fairly uncontroversial, but I'll just tag Nishidani here as they have done quite a bit of work on Aboriginal languages... Anyone else? Gnangarra? Laterthanyouthink (talk) 05:45, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

as much as the Noongar community identify as Noongar, or Nyoongar, and most source use the oo spelling the ISO 639-3 code https://iso639-3.sil.org/code/nys has it as nyungar. So we have the utterly ridiculous situation of the article title not reflecting reality and usages. We are see that with so many Traditional Owner languages and cultures even a month of discussion still has failed removed the offensive term ab....ines for naming structures. Any linguists is going to defend the ISO codes, its just not worth opening another area of arguments. Gnangarra 06:34, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There's nothing offensive about using Nyungar. The modern community identifying itself as Noongar prefers to drop the palatization in the widespread early variant we associate particularly with the Wudjari and Nyunga/Nunga(r). Aboriginal languages are no more static than any other species of human tongue. So be it. Nishidani (talk) 11:21, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

But don't we usually follow AIATSIS for language spellings? Or do we give priority to the ISO spelling in this case? Move it or not? Laterthanyouthink (talk) 11:50, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm for moving it, Gnangarra 12:06, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think so too. Hughesdarren (talk) 12:26, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'll admit that I prefer Nyungar purely out of prejudice. The word Noongar is equally attested and now preferred by that community, but it adopts a form that whites are comfortable with. The vocalization/spelling 'nyu'. Whatever the status of that sound originally - it looks like a voiced velar or palatal nasal - it probably represented a sound not in English in initial position. 'Noongar' on the other hand accommodates the English 'n' where the tongue hits the front of the palate, instead of clamming it midback. Any Aussie drongo of impeccable white credentials can pronounce 'Noongar', whereas the nasal vibrato of 'Nyungar', being unfamiliar, would make listeners stop to think. Making people stop, in order to have them think, is pretty important in an homogenizing world where we all havta thunk Inglish. Nishidani (talk) 13:00, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support move. @Gnangarra: "Any linguists is going to defend the ISO codes" is not quite true. Many of the ISO spellings are made-up crap (dgmw, that does not include "Nyungar"!), and unfortunately get reproduced via tertiary literature (e.g. Makasar, Te'un, Li'o etc. in my research area). Not all linguists give in to use these abominations. Back to the topic: WP:COMMONNAME should be the guide here, not only the common name in scholarship (which often lags behind or occasionally goes its own ways). The Noongar community is bilingual, so their usage is English usage, and should have quite some weight for determining the common name i.e. the best page title. The story behind the name may be telling, but we're not here to right great wrongs. I mean, we even have communities (in other parts of the world) who self-identify with a typo. –Austronesier (talk) 18:10, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Noongar community is bilingual

No it isn't. Do your arithmetic. The relevant data can be found on this article and the Noongar people page. One should make judgments on facts, not wishful thinking.Nishidani (talk) 18:39, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, that was sloppy. But the facts make it even swing more towards Noongar as common name, no? –Austronesier (talk) 19:28, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The only thing that matters for naming a group is what that group, consensually, determines to be the ethnonym they prefer to be called by. It may well be sucking up to white phonology and sacrificing something that would probably have had some non-English phoneme with greater claims to authenticity, as I suggest above, but if they are happy with that, it's not for us to complain.Nishidani (talk) 21:29, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

actually Noongars are forced to be biingual its a legacy of the colonial genocidal system, speakers must speak and understand english because the Australian legal systems deny noongar speakers translators as it does most indigenous languages. The point of Professor Collards issue with the numbers that it was illegal to speak noongar in government facilities like schools only 30 years ago that mean there is great reluctance to even acknowledge in Government surveys that you can speak Noongar or any of the other 300 odd languages. Ironically when I went school it was common for Noongar students to be physically punished simple for using noongar words that the SW Australian English had stolen, while the white kids could say those same words without retribution. Gnangarra 23:58, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support move - Austronesier and Nishidani have both commented about what is relevant here - that consensually the group determines what they prefer to be called by - a careful examination of communities throughout western australia will show the names that outsiders call them, and in most cases what they call themselves - often it can be very different terms. JarrahTree 02:11, 28 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The request to rename this article to Noongar language has been carried out. If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using ((subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.)) and ((subst:RM bottom)) and remove the ((Requested move/dated|…)) tag, or replace it with the ((subst:Requested move/end|…)) tag.

Nyungar language → Noongar language – "Noongar" seems to be the substantially most common spelling of the language, based on Ngrams; "Noongar" also seems to be the spelling typically used by Noongar organizations (e.g. [2] and [3]). Changing the spelling would also make this article WP:CONSISTENT with Noongar. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 16:20, 1 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

An informal discussion about this topic was held last year, so I'm also pinging all participants in that past discussion: Laterthanyouthink, Cygnis insignis, Gnangarra, Nishidani, Hughesdarren, Austronesier, JarrahTree. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 16:20, 1 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support, per NOM and above discussion. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 02:01, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support as per the previous discussion Noongar is the common usage, Nyungar is the ISO standard term, noting the use of Nyoongar has gain some traction in usage over the last couple of years especially with the new generation of academics and young people. As long as redirects are in place for Nyoongar & Nyungar its fine. Gnangarra 04:46, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  Nyungar is the ISO standard term — a point worth noting explicitly in the article. Reference. (Probably simpler to wait until the article is renamed, to avoid having to reword the text when the article name changes.) Mitch Ames (talk) 06:17, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

• Support, as per Gnangarra. Hughesdarren (talk) 05:01, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
• Support, per WP:COMMONNAME, WP:CONSISTENT. Mitch Ames (talk) 06:12, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]