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The school of thought and its subsidiaries are called "Madhyamaka"; those who follow it are called "Mādhyamikas."
Are the disputes finished? I would like to add a section on "Origin and development". The origins of Madhymaka are mostly missing now. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 13:08, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
I've tried to reorder the article, adding a little bit of information on Nagarjuna. Friendly regards, Joshua Jonathan (talk) 14:40, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
How about removing this section? It seems to me that it is to specific for a "general reader"; it's more like a debate for an "inner circle" of Madhyamaka-adherents. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 18:12, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
The difference between Prasangika and Svatantrika may also be stated in plain language, instead by quotes from primary sources without any introduction or context. The same goes for the Prasaṅgika view on conventional existence.
Tsongkhapa mentions several common misinterpretations of the distinction between Prasangika and Svatantrika, a couple of which are:[1]
These misinterpretations are refuted by Tsongkhapa[1]. Regarding the second misinterpreation, Tsongkhapa quotes several verses:
Nagarjuna's "Refutation of objections":
"If I had any thesis,
Then I would suffer from that fault,
But as I have no theses,
I am alone without faults."[3]
Nagarjuna's Sixty Stanzas:
Mahatmas have no positions,
They have no arguments.
How can those who have no positions themselves
Have positions vis-a-vis others?"[4]
Aryadeva's "The Four Hundred":
"No matter how long you try
You can never rebut
Those who have no position
In regard to existence, nonexistence, or both."[4][c]
Napper's commentary includes a thorough examination of common errors made by modern academics, translators, and Buddhologists alike.[5]
Tsongkhapa's thesis is the following:
The opponents of Candrakirti's Prassana-padā (a seminal Prasaṅgika text) are both (a) the essentialists, who accept that things ultimately have intrinsic nature, and (b) the Svātantrikas, who refute that, but accept that things conventionally have intrinsic character or intrinsic nature.[6][d]
A Prasaṅgika asserts that something exists conventionally if it meets all of the following three conditions:
Whatever fails to meet those criteria does not exist.[6] Therefore Prasaṅgikas cannot accept that intrinsic nature exists, even conventionally.
References
As I see it, East Asian Madhyamaka developed from a lineage that accepts Nāgārjuna and Āryadeva, whereas the Himalayan tradition accepts a longer Indian lineage with the additional contributions made by Buddhapalita and Candrakirti (as well as Bhavaviveka and Shantarakshita). Within the Himalayan tradition, there are several subdivisions - the largest of which follow the various schools, and then many minor divisions, right down to collegiate differences within the Gelugpa (who in general accept Tsongkhapa and, combined, have probably written more scholarly texts on Madhyamaka than every other Madhyamaka school, in all history, ever). Most recent western scholarship (Garfield, Napper, Hopkins, Huntington, and others) have, after investigation, tended to adopt one or another of the Gelugpa collegiate interpretations of Madhyamaka due to the attractive, intensely rational, and thorough approaches that they offer.
Therefore, and especially for recent scholarly texts (ie, post-Tibetan diaspora along with the adoption of the Tibetan language and studies into Western universities) it is hard to avoid the strong scholarly bias (and huge corpus) towards the Gelugpa in this article. It's important to remember that although it is a majority opinion, it is only one of many views regarding the Madhyamaka. D. Seyfort Ruegg says (ISBN 978-3447022040, p2) : "Over the past half-century the doctrine of the Madhyamaka school, and in particular that of Nāgārjuna has been variously described as nihilism, monism, irrationalism, misology, agnosticism, scepticism, criticism, dialectic, mysticism, acosmism, absolutism, relativism, nominalism, and linguistic analysis with therapeutic value". Likewise Daye says (ISBN 978-0271011950, 1971 p77) "It seems fair to say that the different labels, approaches, and descriptions of Nāgārjuna writings found in the history of modern scholarship reflect alsmost as much about the viewpoints of the scholars involved as do they reflect the content of Nāgārjuna's concepts."
Bearing that in mind, how best can we establish a list of WP:RS? (20040302 (talk) 13:56, 15 March 2012 (UTC))
This seems to be a chinese rendition of the land of Nagas. I am not convinced that we should get too chinese in our interpretation here! (20040302 (talk))
Well stated, Tengu :D (20040302 (talk))
It seems to me that you-know-who did have a point when he equated existence and existent. When comparing Kalupahana and Wardner I got the impression that svabhava and bhava are being used interchangeably. Reading chapter 15 of the Mulamadhyamakkarika didn't help either; there I also got the impression that the two terms are being used interchangeably. This quote from Warder seems to confirm this impression:
We see from this that Nagarjuna takes the words 'exist' or 'are' and 'being' (the verb as and the noun bhava) as meaning 'existing eternally' and implying the eternalist option. (source: Wardner 2000, p.361)
I'm going check for other translations and commentaries. Any way I try to be as carefull as possible in presenting Nagarjuna's statements, or what my sources state about his statements. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 20:46, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
It seems like a nuanced topic to me. Studying the subject took me in unexpected directions, reading sanskrit text to find out what was written originally, and how that's being understood in various translations. Did you read the article by Hayes? It's interesting. It's not only Warder, it's also Stephen Batchelor and Hayes who point toward a "play" on the use of the various meanings of key terms. I'll have to read something by Garfield, to get other impressions as well. Friendly regards, Joshua Jonathan (talk) 06:05, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
I've got a Dutch translation of Batchelor's translation, and it s***s. Mistranslations, and even letting out part of the verses. totally incomprehensible. Thanks for the 'recommandations list'. Grfield sounds interesting to me. Tsoghkhapa is also on the bookshelve sof my favouritte bookstore (they've got a good selection from Motilall Benaras). Right now I'm reading Hayes 1994 article; he's very good. And I've been reading through Magee the past few days (he happened to be in my collection), but his arguments are not very convincing to me. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 13:12, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
Re. Motilal - be wary of wayman's translation of the lam rim - it's particularly poor and has subject to one (or more) very scathing academic reviews! ----
For the die-hards among us, Mulamadhyamakakarika verse 3 and 6, Sanskrit, Tibetan + Stephen Batchelor translation, Tsondru translations. Friendly regards, Joshua Jonathan (talk) 07:00, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
Verse 3
3. Sanskrit: kutaḥ svabhāvasyābhāve parabhāvo bhaviṣyati| svabhāvaḥ parabhāvasya parabhāvo hi kathyate||3||
3. Tibetan: /rang bzhin yod pa ma yin na //gzhan gyi dngos po ga la yod //gzhan gyi dngos po'i rang bzhin no //gzhan gyi dngos po yin zhes brjod/
3. SB: If an essence does not exist, how can the thingness of the other exist? [For] the essence of the thingness of the other is said to be the thingness of the other.
[SB: There is a problem here with the Tibetan translation from Sanskrit. Svabhava is translated as rang bzhin, but parabhava rather clumsily as gzhan gyi dngos po [the term first appears in I:3]. A Tibetan reader would thus lose the etymological connection between "own-thing" (svabhava) and "other-thing" (parabhava), which then link up with "thing" (bhava) and no-thing (abhava). Nagarjuna is playing on the word "thing".]
IIRC There has been some scholarly discussion about SB's interpretation here, and it's relavance in light of the commentarial literature. 20040302 (talk)
3. T: If nature does not exist, How could there be other-nature? It is the nature of other-nature That is identified as “other-nature”. [XV.3]
Verse 6
6. Sanskrit: svabhāvaṁ parabhāvaṁ ca bhāvaṁ cābhāvameva ca| ye paśyanti na paśyanti te tattvaṁ buddhaśāsane||6||
6. Tibetan: /gang dag rang bzhin gzhan dngos dang //dngos dang dngos med nyid lta ba //de dag sangs rgyas bstan pa la //de nyid mthong ba ma yin no/
SB: Those who view essence, thingness of the other, things and non-things do not see the suchness in the teaching of the awakened.
T: Those who believe in nature or other-nature, In entity or nonentity Fail to see reality Ín the teaching of the Buddha. [XV.6]
There's even more to say about Nagarjuna, his way of arguing, and the ambivalence of the terms he's using:
When one reads Nagarjuna’s argument in Sanskrit, it is not immediately obvious that the argument has taken advantage of an ambiguity in the key term. But when one tries to translate his argument into some other language, such as English or Tibetan, one finds that it is almost impossible to translate his argument in a way that makes sense in translation. This is because the terms in the language of translation do not have precisely the same range of ambiguities as the words in the original Sanskrit. In English, we are forced to disambiguate, and in disambiguating, we end up spoiling the apparent integrity of the argument.Richard P. Hayes (2003), Nagarjuna: Master of Paradox,Mystic or Perpetrator of Fallacies? p.4
Fascinating reading! Joshua Jonathan (talk) 10:52, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
I've added info on the history of Madhyamaka, and on the various interpretations of svabhava. The sections on Tsonghkhapa and modern scholarship leave room for additions, a task for which other Wikipedians are probably more knowledgeable than I am. Joshua Jonathan (talk) 06:52, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
I've removed some wiki-links from the sources-section, since Tsongkhapa is already wiki-linked in the main body of text, and Paul Williams does not match with the reference, which only uses the last name. It also seems, to me, that the sources-list is not the place for Wiki-links. But I'm not sure about that. Also, the "jre tsong Kha Pa" does not link to the source itself, but I don't know why... Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:02, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
How about inserting a section of the etymology of Madhyamaka similar to what was done on the Yogacara page? user:pema donzang 17:22, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
I doubt if Arena is a reliable source. See also Talk:Śūnyatā#Leonardo Vittorio:
The Italian philosopher and orientalist Leonardo Vittorio Arena conceives Nagarjuna's philosophy as nonsensical, in the positive meaning of the word, as follows: 1) Nagarjuna recovers the original message of the historical Buddha, namely, the destruction of opinions, and that may considerably help the post-modern philosopher to embrace a non-dual perspective of the world and life. 2) If developed to its extreme logical consequences, the Yogacara school, far from contrasting Nagarjuna, must necessarily lead to share Nagarjuna's standpoint, inasmuch as the subjectivity of the only one mind may be regarded itself as empty of meaning. According to Arena, Buddhist emptiness has to be related to meaning, namely, to a kind of awareness acquired at a certain level of reality (satya). (Source: Arena 2012,chap.5)
Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 08:02, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
Copied from Talk:Nondualism#Sunyata
I see you have the same issues at the Madhyamaka article. The whole lede is incorrect there.VictoriaGraysonTalk 05:42, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Would we not simply employ the simplex meaning "emptiness" for śūnyatā and then expand upon that word's meaning further? Ogress smash! 05:55, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Vic, we know you don't like the Gelugs; unfortunately, they exist, and they are quite present in this world. What additional info would you suggest, based on which sources? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 07:45, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- The Madhyamaka lede is not even Gelug view. It is just weird stuff.VictoriaGraysonTalk 12:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Vic, I've heard you! Please: what's the alternative, from which sources? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:02, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- In the Madhyamaka lede, I would replace the second and third sentence with: "Nagarjuna and Chandrakirti emphasize that all phenomena are without arising and ceasing". Reference is Center of the Sunlit Sky page 587. VictoriaGraysonTalk 19:00, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Wouldn't that be the specific Kagyu interpretation? Or even Mikyo Dorje's? Besides, that sentence is non-intelligible for 99,9% of the readers; it needs explanation in the article itself. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:41, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
The quote you're referring to is part of a longer section with a critique of Tsongkhapa, about 'disintegratedness performing a function'(p.587), accusing him of taking quotes out of their context. The quote says:
I think we first need a section on non-arising, and a section on the various Tibetan views on emptiness. By the way:
Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:27, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
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@User:Javierfv1212 This is way too much for a single edit. Note that the edit includes deleting a significant amount of content, too; so the amount of new material is probably well in excess of 37,000 characters. Naturally, with such a large edit, it is impossible to do justice to the change in a normal edit summary.
Please break the edit down into a series of simple changes that can each be adequately described in an edit summary, so that reviewers can see what it is that you are doing. Broadly speaking, I think that means that each diff can be reviewed on a single screen (i.e. without scrolling); and that a reviewer can get an overview of what changes you are making simply by reading your edit summaries.
Thanks. MrDemeanour (talk) 09:25, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
Javierfv1212, I appreciate your recent edit. It looks easily reviewable, so thank you. MrDemeanour (talk) 17:59, 5 September 2018 (UTC)
I've been working on cleaning up this article, and there are some problems with the references that I'm hoping someone more familiar with the subject matter can help with:
If I find more issues, I'll add them here. pauli133 (talk) 13:51, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
The two truths themselves are therefore just a practical tool used to teach others, but do not exist within the actual meditative equipoise that realizes the ultimate.<ref>Brunnholzl, 2001, p. 75.</ref>diff; let's ask User:Javierfv1212.
Thus, the presentation of the two realities is in itself an aspect of the bodhisattvas’ skill in means, but within this educational approach, neither of these two realities is “better” or more real than the other. The reason for this is that all presentations and practical applications of these two can only happen within the framework of seeming reality itself, since they only need to be taught to those who have an essentially dualistic state of mind. As such, these two cannot but be mutually dependent and dualistic, since it is impossible to talk about,reflect on, or meditate on the one without the other. Likewise, there is no way to proceed on the path to “the ultimate” without using and eventually letting go of seeming reality. On the other hand, within the meditative equipoise of those who directly perceive what is called ultimate reality, all reference points of a dualistic mind have completely subsided. Thus, any arguments about what is seeming, ultimate, real, or false are by definition simply irrelevant to this perceptual perspective. The Sutra That Teaches the Unity of the Nature of the Expanse of Dharmas says: O Mañjusri, when the expanse of dharmas is taken as the source of valid cognition, there is neither seeming reality nor ultimate reality.
You can verify it here: https://wisdomofcompassionblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/brunnholzl_center-of-the-sunlit-sky.pdf ☸Javierfv1212☸ 00:34, 4 April 2021 (UTC)
According to MOS:DOCTCAPS it would appear that madhyamaka should not be capitalized. Teishin (talk) 15:45, 3 April 2021 (UTC)
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