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Hi Km, I have decided to post all the 4 questions in a short form, meaning I have all the answers, but made them closely pact together, so please if you can read the areas and look at the maps just once, which takes about 1 hour, then you can comment below my message, I thank you very much.
Q1: Are there reputable maps or sources that favor a 10.7 estimate or the green map?
Overview: Maps that if combined, would be larger than 10.7 for the AE, but because the removed green map was trying to be as accurate as possible, it was 10.7. Babylonian empire maps show are meant to show the area the Achaemenids acquired when Cyrus conquered Babylon, an interesting fact is most people are unaware that Egypt was part of Babylonia, when Cyrus conquered, that means both Egypt and Cyprus were part of Babylonia, the question is when did Egypt break from Babylon, before or after Cyrus conquered it? Xenophon the historian says Cyrus had some control of Egypt, but after he died, it revolted from the empire, then it was re-conquered, this time by force, by Cambyses. However, this issue is irrelevant here, what is important is that some maps show significant portions of Arabia, even up to half of Saudi Arabia under Babylonian rule, which would have became Achaemenid territory, and the Arabs on the border who helped Cambyses invade Egypt were already part of the empire, but Cambyses had to ask them for help. Other maps in the list show that the AE controlled at least to the Third Cataract during Cambyses rule. The links to the books at the bottom even say this in their own words. The interesting pink Persia map is from 1971, right below, it is by the National Cartographic Center of Iran (NCC), first published 1971 and revised in 1999, Iran Cultural Heritage Organization (ICHO), so the source can’t be questioned, THIS is the map the green map was based on that you removed, the green map was even more reliable because it took into account more areas that were conquered by the AE, and took into account river, mountain, and even coastline natural barriers and amounts of the time that the AE ruled, in 480 BC. The largest map in this list is at least 8.7, and plus the books mentioned in the end say up to the Blue Nile, and the pink map shows, and the whole coast lines of the Black Sea with Crimea. If you add that plus some northern areas it will be either 9.7 or 10.7 at least. But I have plans to contact the user who made that map, or make one myself that even shows EVERY province of the AE and their positions to show that it was 10.7. The bible says 170, but if you count every group, clan, tribe, race, province, satrapy of the AE it is somewhere between 350-500 nations inside the empire, interestingly it’s half of what was said in the movie 300, when the Persian general said, “The thousand nations of the Persian Empire will descend upon you.” Anyways, you can ignore that, but remember that everyday our knowledge of the AE is growing, and most of the sources that agree with me (note, agreeing with me, means agreeing with each other, because my conclusions are not mine, its what the historians say themselves) are reliable, comparative, unbiased, un-refuted, and updated sources. So I finally hope this has been a great learning experience, and this is done, so first it can be accepted by a user, this is the first requirement towards finally going on the article. Plus, if this is too overwhelming, that in the next large message, I might just include the best maps and books, not most of them, for better focus. Please remember, I am not stretching the truth, I am simply stating what is there to be found for any serious researcher. Thank you very much.
Top 24 maps (I did not include the maps were it shows Egypt in the Babylonian Empire right before Cyrus conquered it, because that is another issue so I focused on the best maps. For the complete list of the 30+ maps with that issue, please make the request in your next message, and I’ll put them here. Also, there are maps here that show AE routes that they took, and that Nubia, Ethiopia, and Punt are three different places, and the first and middle maps contain the 10.7 estimate too, and both come from reputable sources, as also another source states 10.7, as you will see at the end of question 1):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Iran-achaemenids_(darius_the_great).jpg
http://www.socialstudiesforkids.com/graphics/dariusempiremaplarge.jpg
http://fittedtogo.com/BasH/P.304.Fig.63.-Map.Persian.Empire.500BC.JPG
http://teachinghearts.org/dr0imappersia.gif
http://www.crystalinks.com/dariusmap.jpg
http://www.thelastcyrus.com/about/images/03.jpg
http://members.cox.net/smiles17/Images%20for%20Practice%20Test/q11map.jpg
http://www.irc2009.net/images/iran-old-map.jpg
http://www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/bible/Bible/Bible%20Atlas/083.jpg
http://sitemaker.umich.edu/mladjov/files/persia500tbc.jpg
http://www.euratlas.net/altatlas/altatlas_1/aa_0400_0300.jpg
http://www253.pair.com/jfazli/hasius_atlantis/5.jpg
http://www1.american.edu/ted/images4/falla.gif
http://aramis.obspm.fr/~heydari/divers/persian_empire.jpg
http://www.arbolingo.com/tam/worldmap/persia-490bc.jpg
http://www.duke.edu/~rkl7/Images/Greece-Persian-Empire.jpg
http://www.persiansara.com/Iran_Persian_Empire_Cyrus.jpg
http://www.livius.org/a/1/maps/persia_map.gif
http://www.painsley.org.uk/re/Atlas/persemp.gif
http://www.swartzentrover.com/cotor/bible/Bible/Bible%20Atlas/061a.jpg
http://www.unesco.org/csi/pub/source/alex1.gif
http://antique-images.com/images/Atlas1834/Ancient%20Persian%20Empire.jpg
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/persian_empire.jpg The above map is what you chose, look how old it is! The Historical Atlas: By William R. Shepherd, 1923.
Book links:
1. http://www.transoxiana.org/0104/sasanians.html
2. http://books.google.com/books?id=lxQ9W6F1oSYC&pg=PP1&dq=from+cyrus+to+alexander#v=onepage&q=Cambyses%20Ethiopia&f=false As all the sections up to E in question 1 has been answered so far in this document, this link answers question 1.G, read the full pages of 55, 56, 57, 68, 69. Conclusion; both tributaries and gift giving subjects were territorially part of the empire; this is like a quote from page 69 I think.
3. http://members.lycos.co.uk/AnnePowell/queen_resources/map_Nubia.jpg The words in the brackets [] are cities that still exist to this day. Most sources say Cambyses at least reached the Third Cataract and set up a garrison to guard the area for Persia, were interestingly cities with the names of [Kurti], (Kur-Kura-Kuras-Kuru-Kurus for Cyrus, possibly named after his own father Cyrus II the Great of Persia) [Marawi]-Meroe of which both lie by the Third Cataract, (his so-called Egyptian wife or first queen with him which historians say he named after) and [Kabushiya] (Kambushiya is Babylonian or another name for Cambyses, notice it’s missing only the “m” in the word, which he named after himself) which lies on the Fifth Cataract below the real ancient Meroe.
4. http://books.google.com/books?id=AzqbYf9Q_2UC&pg=PA41&dq=persian+empire+million+people&lr=#v=onepage&q=persian%20empire%20million%20people&f=false This book say’s Crimea was inside the empire.
5. http://books.google.com/books?id=VtISTfUL-NAC&pg=PA7&dq=persian+empire+50+million+people&lr=#v=onepage&q=persian%20empire%2050%20million%20people&f=false This book say’s the empire reached as far as the Blue Nile, it could have just said Nile, but say’s Blue Nile, type Blue Nile into Wikipedia and see what comes up, now I have a clear statement from a reputable book that can be used as a source, bingo!
6. http://www.listsergeant.com/site/index.php/content/article/10_little-known_ancient_and_prehistoric_cultures/ This site is copyrighted material from some book, it has been made into a BlogSpot for some history person, the historian AKA “List Sergeant” Emily H. (which may be a actual historian that I have trouble remembering), Check out number 7., that has a 10.7 million km2 estimate for the AE, calls it the largest and wealthiest empire in the ancient world, and the rest of the information is reputable. This site comes from an article too, which because it is copyrighted (but still lets people use it for Wikipedia), the estimate was made by the historian herself.
Conclusion: Therefore, question 1 is 90% correct.
Q2: Are there reputable books that say the AE was the largest empire in the ancient world or classical antiquity?
3. http://books.google.com/books?id=-BIGv9vIoqcC&pg=PA627&dq=achaemenid+empire+largest+empire+in+the+ancient+world&lr=#v=onepage&q=&f=false (includes a 50 million population estimate and 2.5 million square miles or 6,474,970.28 kilometers squared estimation too).
7. http://books.google.com/books?lr=&id=nex1AAAAMAAJ&dq=achaemenid+empire+largest+empire+in+the+ancient+world&q=Persians+created By Lewis Victor Thomas, Richard Nelson Frye - History - 1951 - 291 pages In the sixth century BC the Persians created the largest empire the ancient world had yet witnessed. The "One World" of the Achaemenid kings was a tolerant...
8. Atlas of world archaeology by Paul G. Bahn - Social Science - 2003 - 208 pages Page 130 The empire created by the Achaemenid dynasty of Persia was the largest in the ancient world. Its rulers developed new strategies for organizing ...
11. http://books.google.com/books?lr=&id=fs4JAQAAIAAJ&dq=achaemenid+empire+largest+empire+in+the+ancient+world&q=ancient+world by Jasleen Dhamija - Art - 1979 - 81 pages Under the Achaemenid rulers the frontiers of the Persian empire were greatly ... The founder of the largest empire in the ancient world was Cyrus the Great ...
13. http://books.google.com/books?lr=&id=taOBAAAAMAAJ&dq=achaemenid+empire+largest+empire+in+the+ancient+world&q=achaemenid+empire by Bhairabi Prasad Sahu - History - 2006 - 248 pages Achaemenid empire, but this wave seems to have been confined to India west of ... Achaemenian empire, the largest and most powerful in the ancient world. ...
14. Science, technology & medicine in Indian history: essays in honour of Dr ... by Dr. Devendra Kumar Singh, Vijay Kumar Thakur, Krishna Kumar Mandal - History - 2000 - 452 pages Page 34 ... Which was the heart of the Achaemenid empire, but this wave seems to have been ... empire, the largest and the most powerful one of the ancient world. ...
15. http://books.google.com/books?lr=&id=pJ45AAAAIAAJ&dq=achaemenid+empire+largest+empire+in+the+ancient+world&q=biggest+empire By Centre for the Study of the Civilizations of Central Asia (Pakistan) - History - 1978 It is this newly added strength that later enabled the Achaemenids to lay the foundation of the biggest empire of the Ancient World. ...
18. Oxford illustrated encyclopedia - Page 32 by Harry Judge - Reference - 1988 - 391 pages It was twice the centre of a major empire. The first was established by the ... time was the largest of the ancient world and included the Hanging Gardens, ...
19. http://books.google.com/books?lr=&id=Qf8cAAAAYAAJ&dq=achaemenid+empire+largest+empire+in+the+ancient+world&q=ancient+world+hitherto by Peter Green - History - 1970 - 326 pages ... a greater empire than that of Assyria at her apogee: the largest single administrative complex that had ever existed in the ancient world hitherto. ...
20. http://books.google.com/books?lr=&id=S7kQAQAAIAAJ&dq=achaemenid+empire+largest+empire+in+the+ancient+world&q=largest by Debra Reid - Religion - 2008 - 168 pages Between 545 and 538 BC, the Achaemenid kings conquered the whole of the Middle ... and had established the largest of all the empires in the ancient world. ...
22. http://books.google.com/books?lr=&id=eRxmAAAAMAAJ&dq=achaemenid+empire+largest+empire+in+the+ancient+world&q=largest+state by Arthur Cotterell - Reference - 1998 - 483 pages The Achaemenid art which inspired the Mauryan emperors is one of the great ... that their empire was at the time the largest state in the classical world. ...
Conclusion: Therefore, the Xiongnu or Romans were not the largest empire in the ancient world or classical antiquity, the AE was.
Q3: Are there reputable maps or sources that favor a lower estimate for the Xiongnu Empire?
The Xiongnu book; http://books.google.com/books?id=GXj4a3gss8wC&pg=RA1-PA36&dq=han+were+larger+than+xiongnu#v=onepage&q=han%20were%20larger%20than%20xiongnu&f=false
This book say’s that the Xiongnu were the same size as the Rouran in its greatest extent, the Rouran is currently listed as 3.8 million km2, although they come from the same source, this is eerily close to the previous removed long ago 3.5 number and 4.5 user estimated number (note 4.5 is half of 9.0), the number between 3.5-4.5 is 4.0, when the book says “as vast,” it means nearly as big as the Xiongnu, now if the Xiongnu were 4.0, nearly is 3.8ish, which is the exact estimate of the Rouran, this is critical thinking. So this book and many others yet to be found, indirectly state that the Xiongnu was around 4.0 million km2. Also the maps below, with an exception of a deleted outdated map in the “world history maps,” range from 2.5 to 5.5 in million km2 (relatively about the same sizes, and ranges from 135-215 or 175 BC, when it was at its greatest extent), which I have painstakingly managed to calculate, some have modern day borders drawn on them, so to calculate the numbers would not be original research, because its just calculating what is the exact size of the Xiongnu as found on the maps.
10 maps found of the Xiongnu, which most are reliable;
http://gumilevica.kulichki.net/maps/hun03-0.gif
Not even borders drawn for them, means it’s a confederation: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/hand/hg_d_hand_d1map.gif
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/btn_GeographyMaps/BC%20200%20Huns.gif
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/0/04/20080122204949!Asia_200bc.jpg
http://www.allempires.com/article/images/xiongnu.jpg
http://www.bertsgeschiedenissite.nl/ijzertijd/eeuw3ac/woongebied_xiongnu.jpg
Second most reliable: http://www.worldhistorymaps.info/images/East-Hem_100bc.jpg
Again, not even borders: http://blue.butler.edu/~jfmcgrat/china/map-han100bce.gif
http://studentorgs.utexas.edu/husa/origins/hunhist/hunmap.jpg
Probably the most reliable map here comes from a University: http://ssil.uoregon.edu/hist387/gallery/full/1202860359.jpg
Conclusion: Therefore, the Xiongnu were at least half of 9.0 million km2 in size.
Q4: What do most reputable sources in books say about Cambyses’ invasion of Nubia?
Books on Cambyses’s expedition (listed by newest books first);
Overview: In overall, there are three places, Nubia, Ethiopia, and Punt, which the first one was conquered by Cambyses, then broke away during the revolt of the satraps early in Darius’ rule. Then during his organization of the empire, he included Nubia in the lists, and later after building the Suez Canal added the rest of Ethiopia with Punt, (which he combined under the name of Kush for one huge satrapy, he is known to combine various provinces into one for easier control [If you doubt this fact, I have more sources to back it up]) which was just a tiny spread of land or the northern coast of Somalia. Also, to address two of your great points; there is also historical, not just archaeological as you mentioned, evidence to back up the conquest of Nubia by Cambyses, and together Kush (Nubia and Ethiopia) existed before the Persians and became powerful after, especially Napata and Aksum (Meroe), so when they existed is irrelevant, as interesting as it is, there are mysterious gaps or Persian sounding-unknown rulers listed as kings of Kush at the same time when the Persians conquered it. This is due to the turmoil caused by occupying garrisons and nobles set up by Cambyses and Darius to overlook Kush and Punt when they were fully conquered or became a loosely controlled satrapy by 515 B.C. This is the conclusion one comes to when reading the ten Best books on AE that can be found on Google Books and the rest of the internet. For number nine and ten, Google Books did not allow me to view the books, but luckily I had them in my library look at.
2. http://books.google.com/books?id=XWbhmebyhxAC&pg=PA116&dq=achaemenid+corpus+sources+cambyses+reaches+Meroe#v=onepage&q=&f=false pp. 116-117.
5. http://books.google.com/books?id=dFo7MPWe9V8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=herodotus+ethiopia&source=gbs_similarbooks_s&cad=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false Go to p. 180, he says Cambyses later got more than 1/5 of the way there, probably meant the Ethiopia which was more southern than Nubia, because he is known to mix up Ethiopia with Nubia.
9. J.M. Cook, The Persian Empire; The Critical Decade, The Organization of the Provinces, Published by Schocken Books, New York (1983). pp. 48-49, 87:
“Unfortunately the Eastern Greek levies in Cambyses’ army were not taken on the Ethiopian campaign (III 25), and consequently Herodotus had to rely on Egyptian sources which consistently denigrated Cambyses. So we cannot with any certainty write the campaign off as a disaster. But a few years later people of Kush (Ethiopia) were included among the subject peoples listed by Darius and depicted on the Persepolis Apadana reliefs as negroes bringing gifts of elephant tusk, an okapi (or, we are now told, nilgai) and perhaps incense.”
“Concerning the other (unnamed peoples in the Skudra lists); the island of Socotra is not out of the question.”
10. A.T. Olmstead, History of the Persian Empire; Cambyses and the Conquest of Egypt, The Great King and His Armies, University of Chicago Press, Ltd., London (1945). pp. 89, 244:
“Cambyses annexed the Ethiopians on the border, but, despite “Cambyses’ Storehouse” at the second cataract, supplies failed.”
“Punt on the Somali coast was never organized as a regular satrapy.”
Conclusion: Therefore, Cambyses at least got to Third-Sixth Cataract and was inside the empire, and then Ethiopia and Punt were added during Darius’ reign. Also Xerxes conquered the Dahae north of the Aral Sea, and Akaufaka, or mountains by Yue-Chi or the eastern fringe of China, and got all the way to Athens, remember these are ADDITIONS to Darius’ empire. Also in Xerxes’ inscriptions in Susa he lists that Quadia [Briant, p. 173, (2002)] was in the empire too, which the only tribe with that name in the ancient world was located in Austria and was once conquered by Rome! However I don’t support Austria being part of the empire, so this is still under ongoing investigation. Then after Xerxes, as you may know, the decline of the empire started, so 480 BC marks the zenith of the empire. Also look for where Socotra is located, this may be a surprise. So, with finding that there is also a 10.7 estimate out there, as seen in question 1, my final conclusion is that the AE at its greatest extent in 480 BC was at least 10.7 million kilometers squared, the end.
I included this for a reference, and the main AE article should have one estimate as the Roman Empire article does, not 5.5-7.5, but taking out the 7.7, it should now have one estimate or the 10.7 one.
The AE size discussion has now been resolved.--67.160.195.101 (talk) 07:06, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Actually no the issue has not been resolved at all neither as far as quoting that figure in the WP article is concerned nor as far as us agreeing on the actual area of the Persian empire. Don't take this the wrong way, but after going over most of the sources you've collected, I think a few general words regarding WP and the evaluation of sources are in order.
Hey Km, first of all, I want to thank you dearly for looking into my message. I know exactly what you mean when saying we read them differently. But I think on closer examination you might find out most of what I say is true, now the main problem here is that I have put together so much sources, that it seems like original research, but its put here to show that what I say is overwhelmingly supported by the most and BUT mostly best Persian histories (like you said, number is not important, reliability is important). In my next message, I will select the most reliable sources from my message, and together we will go over them one by one, don't worry I will make it short. I'm just saying we need get the idea of what I'm saying by reavaluating the sources. Also, I'm NOT saying that I am 100% correct, I'm saying most of what I say is repeated by the best Persian historians, I urge you to ask a Persian Wikipedian if the 10 best books in that section are the best Persian history books or not, British Museum, Briant, Dandamenev, Olmstead, Cook, Strauss, Kurt, Grayson I think, etc... So my actual reply will be in the next message. Thanks.--67.160.195.101 (talk) 04:09, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Okay, this is the reply (I know this might seem unusual but I'm going to paste your comments below and put the answer right under them, this would make it easier for you and me so you don't have to scroll up and down each time, because the question and reply are by eachother, thank you for undersating);
I'm not going to paste your comment about sources that say Alexanders and Rome was largest too, because I have a quick answer for them, the first three sources in the Alexanders part if you read carefully say that after Alexander conquered Persia it became the largest empire, the next one only says it was largest.
For your Roman ones, only two explicity say it was the largest, and in the other one book says it became the largest empire in all history, this statement is clearly false, in all history, the largest empire was the British, if your going to count all history.
But one fact is clear the vast majority of authors state Persia was the largest, and the point of Q2 was not to say Rome or Alexanders weren't the largest, the point was that I can't find ONE book that say's the Xiongnu empire? confederation? tribe? (even I don't know what they are fully) were the largest in ancient history, (note, classical antiquity means the ancient history of the WESTERN world, not all ancient history, this is important to understand) also you can find books in my list that say Persia was largest in both ancient history and classical antiquity. So this and question 1 is solved (I'll go into that later), only question 3 and 4 remain, because in your last statement in question 2 you basically say that I'm right, and you are also right because you found some sources that seem to say the Rome or Alexander were largest too.
"The cited books doesn't contain anything about Rouran. So frankly what are you talking about here? MOst of the maps below are not usuable as reputable resources either. However if you can come up with a smaller figure in a reputable source and you want to use that in the article, that's ok with me. However a footnote should explain why the msaller number was picked."
In this statement you show that you have not fully read p. 36, especially its last paragraph that states, The Rouran arose in Mongolia to re-create an empire as vast as the Xiongnu. Which later it tells how far the Rouran reached, and I searched those locations, which meant a figure of 3.8-4.5. Now, the maps I included were the best I can find on the entire net, it astounds me that you say they are unusable as reputable resources (these maps range from 2.5-5.5); Metropolitan Museum of Art 1, Allempires.com internets #1 resource for all empires 2, This is were Wikipedia gets its historical maps from, hundreds of articles get their maps from this guy, who I checked seems to be an academic, like Livius.org 3, University of Texas at Austin 4, University of Oregon [9]-the department and its map-5. Well, what else can I say? I can say that if I had to find more Xiongnu maps, they would come from unreliable sources or user created, so I chose the best 10, and that the p. 36 source indirectly implies that the Xiongnu were as vast as the Rouran, if you believe the Rouran became as large as the Xiongnu, which the book seems to mean, then please make the Rouran 9.0 million kilometers squared-which it's clearly not.
"The cited literature only suggest tha norhern nubia was occupied by the Persians, it does not suggest that Nubia or its capital was conquered. In fact some of them explicitly state, that conquering Nubia was probably not even Cambyses goal to begin with, but rather to secure the border region in southern Egypt. They don't state anything about gaps in Kush rulers."
Your only reading once source again, and drawing conclusions from it. You forgot the four other books that say Cambyses got at least to the Third Cataract. Some Nubian cities still retain Persian or Cambyses type names. The part about gaps in the rulers was an old book that I have trouble finding where it lists the kings of Kush, a list not on Wikipedia. That goal was not begin with statement was one historians theory, most others know, not theorize that it was Cambyses' great African project-as Herodotus even states. The other half of the sources say later, thanks to Darius, he fully finished the conquest Kush (Nubia-Ethiopia), and even made a unregular satrap of Punt (while occupying the island of Socotra)! I don't know understand why it's so hard to understand clear quotations directly from the books THE 10 best books by the best historians on Persia, how much better can this get? In the AE size estimations that we already know about the 2nd highest or most estimates are 7.7, the highest is 5.5, which are hundreds of barely reliable books that copy eachother, only Taag and Turchin are reliable, the other most estimations are from 7.7-10.7.
Your telling me I say things the sources don't say?;
Duke University [10].
Orignially from the British Encyclopaedia, search Google, some maps don't show the source at the bottom [11].
University of Michigan [12]-his profile and school profile-[13]-and his map-[14].
This map is used in a history lecture by a proffesor, you can see the video on Youtube, type in Cyrus captures Babylon, the proffesor has glasses on [15].
This is clearly torn out of a book [16].
The source that made this map is in here Pause the documentary containing many imminent Persian historians at 6:00-its map is this-[17].
National Cartographic Center of Iran (NCC), first published 1971 and revised in 1999, Iran Cultural Heritage Organization (ICHO), so the source can’t be questioned. Read everything down the page-[18].
A reliable site-[19]-borrowed the map from a book-[20].
Another book [21].
Crystal links chose this map from a history booklet-[22].
[23] The above map is what you chose, look how old it is! The Historical Atlas: By William R. Shepherd, 1923. This is supposed to be reliable right? You may want to call this map the map with holes, lol!
Book links; [24] This source states: the conquest of Egypt acted by the Achaemenid Emperor Cambyses (529-522 B.C.) [Snowden, 1971, pp. 121-125, 184; Law, 1978, pp. 98-103, 105; Bresciani, 1985 (reprint 1993); Morkot, 1991; Török, 1997, pp. 377-392; Huyse, 1999]. Some Achaemenid monuments accompanied by carved inscriptions report in effect the possible condition of regions such as Putaya (Libya) and Kushiya (Ethiopia) as rendered tributary of the Persian Empire (fig. 1) [For a detailed study on the presence of these two peoples in the Achaemenian monuments and inscriptions: Walser, 1966, pp. 27-67, 99-101, pls. 29-30, 79-82, foldout pls. 1-2. See also: Conti Rossini, 1928, p. 54; Monneret de Villard, 1937-38, p. 305, note 3; Monneret de Villard, 1948, pp. 154-155; Leroy, 1963, pl. CLXII, a-b; Snowden, 1971, p. 125; Roaf, 1974, pp. 75-92, 137-143; Shinnie, 1978.a, p. 223; Cook, 1985 (reprint 1993), pp. 214, 219, 247, 263; Bresciani, 1985, pp. 503, 523; Tourovets, 2001, pp. 227, 251. According to Herodotus, these were not real Ethiopians but Nubians, i.e. the black inhabitants of the region bordering Southern Egypt [Cook, 1985, p. 263; Tourovets, 2001, pp. 250-251], albeit the incontrovertible similarities between the aspect of the black tributaries depicted at Persepolis and that of a pre-Aksumite Ethiopian statue and reliefs (fig. 2) [Leroy, 1963; Anfray, 1990, fig. at p. 40; Munro-Hay, 1996, p. 413]. Type Aksumite Empire on Wikipedia (its most southern border is by the Blue Nile (oh now I remember another source above [actually its below] also said that the AE reached the Blue Nile oh now I remember) ever wonder where it is?
[25] As all the sections up to E in question 1 has been answered so far in this document, this link answers question 1.G, read the full pages of 55, 56, 57, 68, 69. Conclusion; both tributaries and gift giving subjects were territorially part of the empire; this is like a quote from page 69 I think.
.[26] This book say’s Crimea was inside the empire.
[27] This book say’s the empire reached as far as the Blue Nile, it could have just said Nile, but say’s Blue Nile, PLEASE type Blue Nile into Wikipedia and see what comes up, now I have a clear statement from a reputable book that can be used as a source, bingo!
http://www.listsergeant.com/site/index.php/content/article/10_little-known_ancient_and_prehistoric_cultures/ This site is copyrighted material from some book, it has been made into a BlogSpot for some history person, the historian AKA “List Sergeant” Emily H. (which may be a actual historian that I have trouble remembering), Check out number 7., that has a 10.7 million km2 estimate for the AE, calls it the largest and wealthiest empire in the ancient world, and the rest of the information is reputable. This site comes from an article too, which because it is copyrighted (but still lets people use it for Wikipedia), the estimate was made by the historian herself.
The belief that I state something new is your belief, I state something that most reliable historians have known, but have not fully discussed. So if the empire seems larger than it should because you did not read the end footnotes and further analysis areas of some Persian empire books its not my fault-that is why I urge you to contact Persian Wikipedians to come and discuss this issue with us, people who know what they are talking about and can either back me or discredit me, so I'm just reporting what's out there.
sources need to be ranked by the reputability/reliability of their authors as well.
My reply;
I hope you have read this section carefully before making an reply, please look over it, especially the academic sources (basically all of them), one more time. Best regards to you.--67.160.195.101 (talk) 12:38, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Hi Km, thanks for the detailed reply. I'm just commenting here to tell you that I'm going to write a better one with new sources I discovered. So stay tuned... It will will also be shorter, so we can get down to details and ignore the if's and maybe's, I post what the authors actually said, how does that sound? Thanks a mil.--67.160.195.101 (talk) 02:45, 26 August 2009 (UTC)