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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 18 August 2021 and 1 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): James1933.
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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 1 September 2020 and 15 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Umammi.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 02:03, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
To the author of the original article (The Epop?)--- didn't mean to rewrite so much when I started, merely to correct or dispute a few things. Been almost living with Cortes and Marina, lately, and I guess I got carried away.
If you have sources on some of what I took out, for example that Marina was given to "Tlaxalteca" (sic?) in Tabasco or about her age, I'd really love to know about it.
-Dhermit
Just wondering if there's any idea as to how old she was when she was initially married. From my understanding she was among a group of converted trophy women offered to Cortez by the conquered natives among other "young women"? I could not find how young they were, though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.192.132.93 (talk) 19:34, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
I know La Malinche is still an important myth in modern Mexico- could there be a link to important myths in the modern world? It is a great tool to compare cultures with, the stories a nation keeps telling says a lot about what they themselves value.
I think we ought to mention that the word 'mal' is Spanish for 'bad' or 'evil', and therefore always creates a negative connotation in the mind of a native Spanish speaker, even if the word in question has nothing to do with 'badness' or evil. The prefix 'mal-' is used the same way as 'mis-' or 'mal-' in English, so when it occurs at the beginning of a word also carries a negative connotation. That la Malinche's name features the word 'mal' so prominently, and may possibly be a factor in the adherence of this name to this personality, ought to be mentioned as a factor concerning her in the Mexican national consciousness. However it is interesting to note that there is no such negative impression from that sound in indigneous languages. Makes me wonder how much the linguistics of the matter has influenced the perception of this historic personage. Rockero 21:59, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
The name "Malinche" is explained in page 202 of the book "Historia
verdadera de la conquista de la nueva España" by Bernal Diaz del
Castillo, one of Hernán Cortés' men.
"Malinche" was not Doña Marina, but Cortés himself. Marina, her Spanish
name, was "Malin" for the aboriginals, and "Malinche" meant just
something like "Malin's captain".
telmo 19:47, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I have recently placed this request for addendum in the wrong location of the Mesoamerica project, and have been directed to this talks page.
I apologize if I am utilizing inappropriate structure/design or etiquette in my contributions to the talks page, but I was unable to find relevant easily-accessible material to guide me. My specific request/request-for-contribution is some of the modern day usage of the name "Malinche." It is true that she has been referred to as "La Chingada" or the damned or the one that has been violated (in essence, a victem). But it is also true within many off-shoots of the Mexican population as well as its culture, that there is multiple different meaning. IMHO, I believe that a 1 or 2 lines on Malinche's role (or usage of her name) in todays Mexican or Mexican-American society or culture, is insufficient given that an entire population of a continent has been affected by her interactions with history, and certainly as it continues today. I have no literary reference to provide, no research to validate my assertions, and certainly am no Mesoamerican scholar. I however am a Mexican-American born in southern Texas where the population there is pre-dominantly hispanic, much as southern Los Angeles is. While this contribution or assertion may be nothing more than folk-lore, it none-the-less can be traced through multiple communities throughout Texas, California, New- York, Chicago-Illinois or any other place that Mexicans/Mexican-Americans have chosen to plant themselves. Among many of these communities and people that I have lived with, including aunts, uncles, friends, acquaintances and contacts, the name "Malinche" is used as a term in a very colloquial sense. It's used commonly in North America by many Mexican-Americans as a state of being. Specifically, referencing that a person can be "malinche" if they are unusually cruel, mean or sinister. It has also been used in many occassion to reference a person as a traitor much in the same way that Americans and the English use the term "Benedict Arnold" to describe a person as being traitorous or treacherous. I realize that the term "malinchismo" is cited in the "Malinche" section, but its use as an adverb isn't really the only grammatical usage of the name, from my personal experiences. And yes I have heard and used the term Malinchismo. This having been said, I conclude with my original disclaimer, that I have no project research, no statistical nor analytic nor descriptive data to reference. I simply have first hand experience through interaction with multiple generational usage of the term in various communities throughout the North American continent north of the Mexican border. My hope is that this request for contribution will be reviewed, some portion atleast, be included with the original Malinche" Project Page, and/or that those actively engaged in the project will contact me and give me feed-back, disclaim my assertions, educate me in appropriate submissions for request on a talk page and just a general "Hello we got your information." |
Jerry.zambrano 09:41, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Really? Its shortsighted to consider her a traitor to her people? I guess the indians (according to this article) should be thankful that they were almost, but not completely, wiped out!So i guess they werent forbidden to talk their own language and practice their own culture? Not to mention that the survivors spent their lives as slaves for the spanish after that? Yeah, thanks alot, Malinche - she really did them a fabour there.... Please get rid of this reactionary excuse for genocide and imperialism.(Durrutti68 (talk) 10:55, 5 July 2008 (UTC))
As opposed to total annihilation, yes, this was a considerably better fate.76.14.29.174 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 21:40, 5 February 2009 (UTC).
Pretty sure this stuff counts as original research, and so is not allowed.130.212.42.207 (talk) 21:14, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
I support the merger or alternatively just deleting the "donna malinche" article which is not compettive with the material in this one. The title indeed is wrong, (as most of you probably know "donna" is italian not spanish and not used about Doña Marina)Maunus 19:23, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The picture used to illustrate this article is from Lienzo de Tlaxcala and I am fairly sure that the Xaltelolco here is the one near Tlaxcala and not Tlatelolco, which only some sources say was earlier called xaltelolco. The reading of the glyphs also corroborate this interpretation: Citlalpopocatzin is named in other places as a lord of tlaxcalan affiliation, not of Tlatelolcan/Mexica.
Description of the picture from Lienzo de TlaxcalaMaunus 20:23, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Aside from any regular disagreements about hisory, I think it's important to continually refer to La Malinche as Malinche not Marina. This is Latin American history that's being related here and constantly using her Western-given name gives the entire article a completely Western-focused perpsective, i'm not saying that it's offensive (at least certainly not to me) but it does demonstrate to some extent how the author views the world--with a very Western lens. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.190.68.51 (talk) 17:07, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree that we should use the name "Marina" when speaking of the girl herself, because "La Malinche" has acquired pejorative connotations, and she herself chose the name "Marina" as her Christian name when she was baptized. Let's distinguish between the legendary figure "Malinche" and the historical figure who called herself Marina. [[[User:Alexpope|Alexpope]] (talk)Alexpope] —Preceding undated comment added 01:47, 29 May 2010 (UTC).
how is she mestizo? she is purely indigenious in ancestry. perhaps itd be more appropiate that she was one of the first to know both indigenous languages and spanish, or the first to give birth to mestizos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.2.175.83 (talk) 17:47, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
In order to have a better knoldge of the origin of la Malinche, it is pertinent to read the first letter of Cortez to the monarch of Spain, he said " The indian which I have which is a Tongue who was given to me in Putunchan" (Putunchan=Champoton, Tabasco)there is a note from Francisco Lorenzana saying that "Dona Marina de Viluta (segun Gomara) was from Xalisco taken as slave to Tabasco and from a very "noble" family. If that is true, she was opposed to the Aztecs because her land was conquered by this people. She was just acting according the human nature. 189.169.146.136 (talk) 01:50, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
the whole "malinche being cortez's mistress" statement is not an irrefutable fact. some people like Frances Karttunen, believe that cortes sexually abused her which would make her a sex slave, not a mistress. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crossovershipper (talk • contribs) 07:34, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
doesn't the term mistress imply consent, and some power. since malinch had no power in the reltionship, she's not a mistress. if anything, she was more like a concubine(since concubinage isn't always consensual. it can be sometimes, but not always.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crossovershipper (talk • contribs) 18:13, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
I would argue that sex slave wouldn't do her position justice - while it may be true that sex was involved in their relationship, her influence stretched far past just sexual services. In fact according to Stephanie Wood in her book "Transcending Conquest: Nahua Views of Spanish Colonial Mexico", Malinche was sometimes used to refer to both La Malinche as well as Cortes as one entity. Her name being used in lieu of Cortes' emphasizes her power as an interpreter and less as a slave or sex slave. While mistress may or may not be the best word to describe her, I do think it fits better than the suggestions so far. Andrewiskang (talk) 15:18, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
it is unknown how old she was when given to cortes, but i suspect that she might have been a preteen in 1519 since she didn't get pregnant until a couple years later. cortes probably used her sexually(aka raped/sexually abused her) shortly after alonzo went to Spain. anyways children pick up languages more quickly than adults do. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crossovershipper (talk • contribs) 22:03, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
doesn't the fact she was given to the spanish as a slave alone indicate that she was raped / abused by the spanish? also we don't know if he was a pedophile or not. also i thought that pedophilia was acceptable back then since children as young as nine-ten yours when they got married since some girls start going through pubrety at that age. i was thinking that maybe she was between the ages 10-12 in 1519, due to what i stated earlier.--Crossovershipper (talk) 03:17, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
yes i am aware that cortes gave her Puertocarrero, but he gave her to him as a sex slave. sexual slavery is all about rape. then when Puertocarrero left, he decieded to malinche his personal sex slave. this is why i consider their relationship to be about rape and sexual abuse. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crossovershipper (talk • contribs) 16:42, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
i'll give a few sources. also it's important to mention the coercive nature slavery. for the most part salve owners raped/sexually abused their slaves. considering the power dynamics the cortes/malinche relationship, that alone implies that he raped/sexually abused her http://userwww.sfsu.edu/epf/journal_archive/volume_IX,_2000/taylor_j.pdf http://books.google.com/books?id=G-vvGpinXP8C&pg=PA106&lpg=PA106&dq=cortez+raped+Malintzin&source=bl&ots=-I1t-GVm33&sig=HXmgrix8-C8abYPCv_wEk42eyZQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2TEDUbL2LKP3igLWsIDQBA&ved=0CGAQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=rape&f=false http://latineos.com/en/articles/popular-culture/item/88-malinchismo.html http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/spanish-conquest/dona-marina-part-2 http://nuestrafamiliaunida.com/podcast/mujer.html ---scroll towards bottom to see two part podcast about a lecture on malinche by Frances Karttunen — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.141.115.25 (talk) 05:48, 21 June 2013 (UTC)
Greetings. I wonder if the consensus is truly on what the text is currently saying about her origins. Diaz and others appear to point to the Olmecs. Ramires provides a historiographical summary here: " en tierras olutecas." Any ideas? Caballero/Historiador (talk) 16:40, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
The 1917 film The Woman God Forgot, by Cecil B. DeMille, has Montezuma's daughter Tecza help Cortez capture the Aztec capital in order to save her beloved, a Spanish captain, from human sacrifice by Aztec priests. I don't know how close this is to Haggard's novel Montezuma's Daughter, which is already listed in the section on cultural references to La Malinche. The film is newly out on DVD, from Silent Hall of Fame. In the intertitles on the DVD, one of Tecza's slaves is called Marina. In the film this is her Mexican Indian name, not a Spanish name. She is condemned to be sacrificed, escapes with Tecza's help, seeks safety with the Spanish and advises Cortez. This appears to be a reference to La Malinche. In the Wikipedia and IMDB pages on The Woman God Forgot, Olga Grey is listed as playing "Aztec woman." But in the book American Film Institute Catalog: Feature Films, 1911-1920, Grey is credited as "Marina," so the new DVD's intertitle is probably right. I suggest adding the film to the article on La Malinche. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CC40:D30:C057:206D:F86E:D2B6 (talk) 03:06, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
We should move this article to simply "Malinche". There are hardly any sources about her that add the article "la", which is of course nonstandard for a personal name - the majority of sources simply write "Malinche" (or Marina/Malintzin).·maunus · snunɐɯ· 06:33, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
I just reverted an uncommented edit changing the name above the headline picture from "Marina" to "Malintzin", with a comment that she's more commonly known by her later name. However, I figure this merits some discussion here.
In my experience, by far the most common name used for her (for reference to WP:COMMONNAME), is La Malinche. However, among those who use a name for her (rather than what has become an epithet), it's more common to see Doña Marina (the prefix denoting aristocracy, comparable to something like "Lady Diana"), rather than Malintzin. Doña Marina is what was used formally in New Spain, in particular in documents. Malintzin appears to have been a nickname used for a period by Nahua during the conquest itself, unclear if that continued once New Spain was formally established. It wasn't her birth name - we don't know what that was, but we know that Malintzin was not it.
So, the question remains - should we change the name above the image (which currently says "Marina", I'd favor making that "Doña Marina") and/or in the description right below (currently says "Malintzin, in an engraving dated 1885.") Note that the image itself on commons here, self-describes as "Donna Marina (La Malinche)", not mentioning Malintzin. I can assert that the "Donna" is incorrect, presumably that's someone anglicizing the ñ . Regards, Tarl N. (discuss) 01:13, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
I just reverted an edit of the quote from the Florentine Codex which had changed the spellings of Motecuçoma and Marina. The specific reference in reverting this was the Library of Congress' on-line copy of the codex, image 852 of Volume 3 - see here, left column about half-way down. What it specifically says: Fue dicho a Motecuçoma como los españoles usan una india mexicana que se llamara Marina vezina del puble de tetipac que es a la orilla de la mar del norte, y que usan esta por interprete que dezia en la lengua mexicana todo lo el capitan don hernando cortes la mandara.
If someone can sanity check my reading of the not-terribly clear script, we might want to put the actual quote in the article, with an english translation below it. Regards, Tarl N. (discuss) 16:29, 31 October 2023 (UTC)