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![]() | New Tribal Revolution was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 07 April 2010 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into Ishmael (Quinn novel). The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
This article needs to offer page numbers where the quotes are pulled from. This would be very helpful. 150.243.32.195 00:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I feel that this article needs more than just a summary of the book and how it arrives at the final conclusion—perhaps someone could write a "controversy" or "objections" section at the end. I remember reading this book and being quite disgusted by it. This article, I feel, is not NPOV. Benji 17:03, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I removed this from the first of the summary paragraph:
"By this time the reader they will find themselfs sleeping or realizing how bad of a book ishmael is. one might want to put the book down or cry because our world has come to this. forget creation, captivity, diversity, and laws, the only thing you have ot realize is this book sucks. its a talking GORILLIA!"
Now I haven't read the book, but this is clearly in gross violation of NPOV, and sloppy to boot. Can someone who's read the book check if anything needs adding between these first two paragraphs of the summary section?
LOL, so you either accept the book's premise of a wise talking gorilla handing down sage advice--in which case you are an open-minded person willing to look critically at the world around him--or you're a closed-minded Taker bastard hell-bent on killing every nonhuman species. Maybe it's not just the book's opponents who have "open-mindedness" problems. As the above discussion indicates, if you swallow everything Quinn says with that open mind of yours, you may be accepting many baldly false assertions. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.145.126.104 (talk • contribs) .
I definitely agree with the poster above.
Please say I'm not the only one who thought Ishmael was insanely over-hyped. It lacked pretty much any unique thought and was full of historical inaccuracies. There is no scientific consensus that the Hohokam said, "To hell with it," concerning their agricultural system. The Maya never decided, "Wow, having an agricultural society is suicidal," and simply abandoned their lives. After an incredible amount of research, it was found that both were found to be a mixture of political and environmental issues. There are very little remains of hunter-gathering societies, for obvious reasons, and we don't know nearly as much as Quinn is claiming. So, why is a man with no degree in history, anthropology, or biology writing a book on the anthropological and biological faults humanity is making? He has no authority in the sciences he's commenting on. Why are people believing him when he writes all of this without any citation or bibliography?
This book has as much factual credit as the Bible, Torah, and Koran. Daniel Quinn gives the reader no logical reason to believe him. All he provides are 250 pages of fallacies. Humans aren't nearly as savage as Quinn depicts them.. The reason why farmers go out and hunt foxes is because they are capable of doing so. The hyenas would go attack the lions if they were physically capable of being assured victory, like the farmer is. Animals (especially other primates) divide into tribes and attack each with little provocation. Humans aren't the only ones who behave in such a way.
Humans are the only animal on the planet that actually mourn over their kill. Whether it be fellow human or animal, we are the only species that have ever shown deep respect for our prey (though we rarely do that now) or for killing another human in battle.
Feel free to research any of these statements. I'd be glad to know that I'm wrong on some of them, because I'm having the hardest time swallowing the near unanimous respect this novel appears to be garnishing. There seriously needs to be a section about how inaccurate this book is. Antisthenex 13:34, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm not without my criticism for the book. I do, especially, like the idea of not sending food to countries with prolonged shortages. My background (and degree) is in applied math. There *is* a definitive limit on how much food the world can produce. I have no idea what that number is, but it exists - for all levels of technology. We can improve our techniques, but the max output remains unchanged. Continuing to feed countries incapable of feeding themselves ensures another (larger) generation needing assistance until the time when we reach max production and people *have* to die. By then so many generations will have passed that instead of allowing 50,000,000 to die, we have no choice but to watch a huge multiple of that number starve.--Legomancer (talk) 23:12, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I am just wondering if this book fits in the "Alternative History" category. It doesn't really provide an alternative history it simply gives one person (gorilla's?) interpretation of history. Jhawk1024 07:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
The "plot summary" section is a hash of both items that are (a)plot, as in events that move the action forward and (b)items that are ideas or philosophy. I know the plot is not the most compelling part of the book but it deserves to treated separately from the exposition.
If anyone seconds the motion, I'll work on this right away. Kwarizmi 17:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the support. I'm reworking the article using the following organization:
... leaving as much of the original text as possible. Much of the narration in the current text ("Ishmael says that", "Ishmael makes the point that", etc) will be removed. Comments/suggestions please? Kwarizmi 15:45, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Something should be mentioned about the conclusions drawn by Alan at the end of the book. Something along the lines of: humans should see a greater potetial and act as stewards/shepards for other species as they evolve...Wewantutopia 03:18, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone like the idea of having a separate section for the "Mother Culture" idea? I found it an interesting notion, but I'm not sure it's unique to Ishmael. Can anyone help with a possible source/referrence? Kwarizmi 15:45, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Image:DanielQuinn Ishmael.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
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not that it's that big of a deal, but i don't think beyond civilization goes with the other three books in the series. the three in the series all have similar cover designs and are..yknow...fiction.
quinn writes about similar ideas in all his books, this doesn't make them all the same series.
--74.97.142.249 20:46, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Image:DanielQuinn Ishmael.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 21:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Since much of Daniel Quinn's work is fiction, he doesn't cite sources, and my cursory investigation yielded no evidence that he even has source material. While I certainly don't believe that his work can only be valuable if there are "legitimate" scholarly sources for his interesting theories, I do think that for the sake of academic or artistic integrity, we should be clear about it. Daniel Quinn's books present themselves with an air of authority that seems to imply that though they are technically fiction, they are actually non-fiction wrapped in a narrative story. I think that because of the implied authority of the Ishmael character, the article should be clear about whether anything Ishmael says is actually backed up by real evidence.
For example, a significant chunk of the book centers around Ishmael's interpretation of the Genesis story. Is this interpretation something that Quinn concocted for the purposes of making a point, or is there actual historical evidence that this interpretation might be accurate? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.58.108 (talk) 17:44, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Is there a way to verify interpretations? -JRV —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.163.57.234 (talk) 09:15, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
I too was skeptical about the historical accuracy of Quinn's interpretation of Genesis. But even if it's false, I think that it still holds metaphorical value.
Quinn does refer to Marshall Sahlins's Stone Age Economics to back up his assertion that man in the state of nature is healthier and has more leisure than agrarian man.1Halpo1 (talk) 22:29, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
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I just watched the movie, havent read the book. This paragraph seems mostly wrong:
"Daniel Quinn did not approve of the script or movie before transferring the rights, which were transferred as part of the Turner Award. The movie and book share no common story elements, and the philosophical connection to the book is reduced to some pictorial format and a few seconds of on-screen dialogue."
The second sentence can't be right. I read this page after seeing the movie, and the majority of it was already familiar to me, from the movie. The bit about "some pictorial format and a few seconds of dialogue" is apparently referring to the map Powell draws on the wall in one short scene, but it's just silly to talk as if that is the only part of the book retained in the movie. Judging by this page, a lot of the themes and specific content of the book are retained in the movie. It even seems wrong to say there are no shared story elements. There are some, literally and metaphorically.
Also, getting "movie options" with the award, means that you automatically give away the rights? That doesnt sound right.
I wanted to delete this whole paragraph, but as a first-time visitor I thought that may be going too far, so I Left it alone. It does seem all wrong though. 110.20.157.59 (talk) 22:30, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
This entire paragraph was recently added to the Ishmael section:
Among the growing number of works unofficially influenced by Quinn the one likely influenced that itself has been the most influential is THE MATRIX, which reminded so many early readers of Ishmael that their comments drove the Quinns to the theater for the first time in a decade to see for themselves (search the Q&A on Ishmael.org for “the matrix” for Quinn’s exact claim as to the resemblance and (likely) influence). This writer, Destry Griffith, an as-yet-unpublished Quinn scholar who specializes in the relationship between Quinn’s ideas and those of linguist Noam Chomsky, has also observed many seemingly Quinnian themes in a growing number of books and movies, such as INCEPTION and HAPPY FEET, both quite demonstrably influenced by My Ishmael. Besides easily establishable thematic and character similarities (Ellen Page “plays” Julie Gerchak, Leo is more-or-less Ishmael, and the plot revolves around what Quinn described as “changing minds” and does so in a distinctly Quinnian way), there is also a My Ishmael Easter Egg in Inception. As if to wink at us, the movie makers had Leo—for no discernible better reason—make a unique drawing for Ellen virtually identical to the “give support, get support” diagram in the book. Happy Feet is even more demonstrably affected by My Ishmael, complete with the Dancers of Terpsichore metaphore, the obvious themes of tribalism, the cultural and natural devastation when tribes encounter our civilization (the helicopter scene) and the Ishmaelian sense of ourselves as wild animals incarcerated by the invisible bars of our civilization (when the protagonist wakes up in the enclosure and begins running into the walls he cannot see).