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I've noticed many Hebrew language sites and Israeli sites use the Gregorian calendar and not the Hebrew calendar. Arab web sites on the other hand almost always use the Islamic or Iranian dating. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.89.165.90 (talk) 22:50, 5 March 2007 (UTC).
The Jewish Calendar is lunisolar. That means it attempts to coordinate with both the sun and the moon. The calendar does a great job coordinating with the moon but the average length of the Jewish year is about 6 minutes, 12 seconds longer than the Gregorian year (solar year). This accumulates to one day every 232 years or so. The solution to this problem is to borrow the mathematical ideas behind Easter. Our current allocation of 12 and 13 month years is mathematically equivalent to a 19 year cycle with epact starting at 2. Three times every 700 years, lower the epact by one. When we lower the epact by one to 1, this mathematically moves the 13-month year in the eighth year to the ninth year. This will cause the average date of Rosh Hashonah to come earlier by one day over the 19 year cycle. This will cancel out the one day drift in the Jewish calendar every 232 years. When the epact changes from 0 to 29 for the first year, the average date of Rosh Hashonah will come later by about 29 days. If we remove one month from the calendar at that time, the average Rosh Hashonah date will reset one month earlier. This is how to remove one month from the calendar without changing the average solar date of Rosh Hashonah. When we recalculate the 12-month and 13-month years within a 19 year cycle three times every 700 years, the average Rosh Hashonah date on the solar calendar will come earlier by one day cancelling out the drift in the Jewish calendar. These adjustments will keep the Jewish calendar more accurate with the sun. --Trust101 05:09, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
This method is not applicable to the Hebrew Calendar because it does not use epacts. Instead a proposal to use a 334-year cycle of 123 intercalary years has been made [1] made up of 18 19-year cycles, that last of which is truncated to 11 years. -- Karl 13:40, 8 March 2007.
Any calendar system can be made more accurate by increasing the length of the repeating cycle. Once a calendar cycle goes beyond a lifetime, it becomes difficult to maintain. Pope Gregory was concerned back in 1582 that we wouldn't remember that 2000 was a leap year but we did. My proposal would use the epact system similar to Easter to determine the allocation among the 19 years, not specific solar dates for holidays. When the epacts decrease, the allocation of 12 and 13 month years changes pushing the average date of Rosh Hashonah earlier to cancel out the later drift. When the first epact changes from 0 to 29, we remove one lunar month from the calendar to keep the solar average date of Rosh Hashonah consistent.--Trust101 04:36, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Parts of the Tanakh do use the post-exilic names. Megillat Esther uses these extensively, for instance. Zakharin 21:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't this article be the place to also discuss the days of the week and their names, and the 7 day week, yom-rishon thru shabbat?
Is Wikipedia the appropriate forum for proposing revisions to the Hebrew calendar? The discussion of the rate of drift of the existing calendar is entirely appropriate. But I don't think the discussion of hypothetical revisions and the political obstacles that lie in the way of revisions is encyclopedic material. The calendar is the way it is, for better or worse, and is not likely to change any time soon. Wikipedia needs to be addressing what is, not what might be. My $0.02 Karl Hahn (T) (C) 17:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Is it just me, or are the phrasings of the external links to conversion software more than mildly SPAMmish? -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. 11:18, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
In the Second Temple era section, Gamaliel II is cited for innovations made in "c. 100" (whether BCE or CE is not specified). According to the linked article on his life and times, this would be ca. 100 CE, well after the destruction of the Second Temple. Work is needed to correct or clarify this confusing chronology. Hertz1888 07:20, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
i am not a JEW, am a Christian.A seventh day adventist to be more precise. am trying to find out how possible it is that the seventh day has been the seventh day since the time of Adan and EVe. I need help urgently.- Clayton Busiku
Hi everyone, whichever your religion!
I do not intend to start a war about names and their transliteration, but I noticed that non-Hebrew speakers are most often misleaded by transcriptions of ח by CH, which they inevitably read [tʃ] instead of the (various) correct pronunciations. That is why I replaced Chamishi (יום חמישי) with Ḥamishi. In the same way, I added the transliteration of עי"ן (ʻ) and gave יום שני as Yom Sheni (i. o. sheini) and יום רבעי as Yom Reviʻi (i. o. rivi∅i — furthermore, if I read well, the רי"ש in יוֹם רְבִיעִי bears a שווא, not a חיריק).
I may add that I just refrained from transliterating שבת by Shabat, with a single b, as I have already been sniped at for simply removing the מקף from תל־אביב, to reflect the Israeli most common use (I thought that Israelis know better than non-Israelis how a (non-Biblical, modern) city should be written — I couldn't guess that New-Yorkers knew better than Israelis…).
It seems that Israeli Hebrew has no place here, and I wonder why… — Іван Коренюк ψ Ivan Korenyuk 10:23, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
According to the Hebrew Calendar, did creation of the world (1 Tishri 1 AM) begin on a Sunday or a Monday or a Saturday?--98.195.141.44 01:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Just a reminder to anyone who edits the article that there are differences between them.
http://www.hope.edu/bandstra/RTOT/INTRO/INT_4B.HTM
So the parts that speak of the Jews receiving the commandments should be changed to Israelites or Hebrews. I'll leave that up to other people to decide on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.120.165.225 (talk) 03:14, August 26, 2007 (UTC)
Is there a difference between the Hebrew calendar and Jewish calendar? I have seen both termed used. Is one more appropriate than the other? --Andrew
In my experience both terms are used interchangeably. Ezra Wax
CURRENT HEBREW YEER?--Goon Noot 21:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
The scriptures that show the current biblical year (anchored on Genesis, the Exodus, the start of the Temple, and Sennacherib's invasion listed in Isaiah): [2]
2008 becomes the 3503rd from Egypt, and 6171st from Creation. No938 (talk) 01:59, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
Working my way through a restructuring. But what exactly does this sentence mean? "If one back-calculates the moments of the traditional moladot using modern astronomical calculations then the closest that their reference meridian of longitude ever got to Israel was midway between the Nile River and the end of the Euphrates River (about 4° east of Jerusalem), and that was in the era of the Second Temple." Kaisershatner 20:12, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Cut this from article. Is is WP:OR? If not, it needs to be cited. Kaisershatner 20:36, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
As the 19-year cycle (and indeed all aspects of the calendar) is part of codified Jewish law, it would only be possible to amend it if a Sanhedrin could be convened. It is traditionally assumed that this will take place upon the coming of the Messiah, which will mark the beginning of the era of redemption according to Jewish belief. [This paragraph is in conflict with the historical gradual evolution of the calendar rules that was outlined above. If the calendar development was indeed gradual and did not reach its final form until Maimonides, who published the first complete and unambiguous codification of both the observational and fixed-arithmetic Hebrew calendars, then a Sanhedrin is not required to change it. If the calendar rules were set by the Sanhedrin of Hillel II, then the gradual history outlined above is wrong and only the present or future Sanhedrin can change them.]
An excellent solution would be to replace the 19-year cycle with a 353-year cycle of 4366 lunations, including 130 leap months. It is predicted that this cycle, together with use of a progressively shorter molad interval, will keep the amended calendar from drifting for more than 7 millennia (deduct 3 millennia if the traditional molad interval is retained). The calendar arithmetic to do this is straightforward and is documented in the public domain (see the external link to the Rectified Hebrew Calendar).
Another possibility would be to calculate the astronomical moment of the actual northward equinox and declare a leap year if and only if Pesach would otherwise start before the equinox. Similar ideas are used in the Chinese calendar and some Indian calendars. This would be very accurate, but would require a central authority to be responsible for the official calculations, because there are small differences between astronomical algorithms, depending on the methods employed.
Adopting an astronomical calendar would require more explicit definition of the calendar rules. Should the calculated equinox moment be the actual astronomical equinox, or the mean astronomical equinox, and which meridian of longitude should the moment be referred to? (The traditional equinox moments of Tekufat Shmuel drift at the same rate as the Julian calendar, and those of Tekufat Adda drift at the same rate as the fixed arithmetic Hebrew calendar, so neither can be used.) Should the leap month be inserted if the equinox would otherwise land after the end of the first day of Passover (as Maimonides suggested), or should the cutoff be the moment of the Korban Pesach sacrifice 30 minutes after noon on the 14th of Nissan (most compatible with the Torah command in Deuteronomy 16:1), or should the average equinox moment align with the average moment when the month of Nissan starts (calendrically most sensible)?
Should a progressive molad be used, or the actual lunar conjunction, or a prediction of new lunar crescent visibility (a reliable way to do that still doesn't exist), and which meridian of longitude should the moment be referred to? Should month lengths vary such that any month can have 29 or 30 days, or should the present rules for fixed month lengths be continued? (In particular, should the length of Elul be fixed at 29 days, which was mentioned in many places in the Talmud?) Should there be any offset between the "molad" moment (however determined) and the start of months (one day yields good agreement with the performance of the fixed arithmetic calendar)? Should Rosh HaShanah postponement rules be continued, or advance/postpone used instead (arithmetically much simpler)?
The compatibility of the selected astronomical rules with the dates of High Holy Days and other events, and with the weekly Torah portions, needs to be evaluated and confirmed as acceptable.
The article states:
What impossible dates of 506 and 776? Perhaps a one-day disagreement between the day of the month and that of the week? If so, I have read a plausible resolution. An article in a recent edition (#456) of "Meorot HaDaf HaYomi" discusses such one-day differences. One example: a tombstone dated Tuesday, 12 Elul 4263 (or rather: 435 to the destruction of the temple), while the current calendar would have 12 Elul on Wednesday. The author proposes that the day of the month is to be counted from the first ot the two days of Rosh Chodesh, so that in the example given the actual date is 10 Elul, eleventh from the thirtieth of Av, the first day of Rosh Chodesh Elul. The author continues to quote various medieval sources that this alternate reckoning of dates was actually in practice.
Is there any further information as to whether this would resolve these discrepancies? Ratzd'mishukribo (talk) 22:04, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Want to help write or improve articles about Time? Join WikiProject Time or visit the Time Portal for a list of articles that need improving.
—Yamara ✉ 18:09, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Correct me if I am wrong: In the 19-year calendar cycle there are 7 years with 13 months called leap years and 12 years with 12 months. If you happen to be born in the 'leap' month, when do you celebrate your birthday in a non-leap year? Juve2000 (talk) 19:41, 8 October 2008 (UTC)
The article's assertion that
The day is the smallest unit of time in the Jewish calendar.
is ridiculous, as any of the millions of observant Jews around the world can testify.
The day is not the smallest unit of Jewish time, and there is a halachic use of hours (called sha`oth - שעות.) The period from morning to night and from night to morning is each divided into 12 portions, and various events during the day, such as sacrifices in the Temple in Jerusalem and prayers in the synagogue, must occur during different hours of the day and night. The use of hours is all discussed in the Mishnah, as is some of the dispute about when the day and night each begin. The latter issues are further discussed in the Gemara.
The hours themselves are divided into minutes (dakot - דקות - also meaning "thin [ones]", being a "thinner" portion of time than hours) and "portions" (chelekim - חלקים - also meaning "fractions.") The minutes are used in a few places for specifying durations of time such as the amount of time to wait for Birkat Hamazon (Grace after meals) or how long before moistened dough is considered leavened (and hence unfit for matzo.) The "portions" are used only for the public announcement of the molad - the earliest time when the new moon becomes visible over Jerusalem.
I don't have time now to properly write this up and add it into the article, with proper citations, so I slapped the ((Disputed)) tag on the offending section. At least the facts are now here.
--84.109.186.85 (talk) 15:27, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
is nearly as misleading, because there IS a Jewish clock, with variable hours. Just about every Jewish calendar published prints times on it, with the mapping of secular time (the fixed, 24 hour clock) to halachic time (the 12/12 variable hours system) the same way it shows the mapping of the secular calendar (January through December) to the Hebrew calendar.There is no clock in the Jewish scheme,
" is ridiculous. It might be better modified to: "The moment or chelek is the smallest unit used the determination of the calendar". The statement itself that the smallest unit of time is simply wrong. As the article concurs, that hours (for the determination of the molad - the basis for the calendar) maybe divided into Chalakim (1080 parts to an hour) and these are further subdivided into Regaim (76 Regaim/moments in a Chelek). This is all explained by the Rambam, and elaborated by Ganz's translation.The day is the smallest unit of time in the Jewish calendar.
Some parts of the article demonstrated an openly hostile attitude toward Jewish sources. It stated several times that they had failed or been proven incorrect when nothing in the source material indicated as such, thus constituting original research, if not outright lying. Specifically in the section about the calculated calendar, spurious reasoning and tortured wording were used to give the impression that the Jewish sources were wrong, rather than just presenting their contents straight(since they are the only direct source on the matter). I tried to clear some of it up and use more neutral wording, but I left the unsourced criticisms and disparagements on the chance that someone might find a source for them. It says in one place that something is unknown when another place explains how it was proven. It definitely needs more work.
Other examples of this hostility are discussed in other talk sections, such as Day is divided into halachic hours, Discrepancies in the early Gaonic period, and Discussion of "remedy" for calendar drift. 75.168.23.105 (talk) 07:58, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
It is possible to find "reliable sources" that say the actual mean synodic month is getting longer and others that say it is getting shorter. I thought I would record the solution here for reference. It is not clear what the exact definition of "mean synodic month" is, but essentially: equations matching the actual motion of the moon comprise some very slowly changing non-periodic functions and some periodic functions with slowly changing parameters. The "mean synodic month" can then be taken as the non-periodic part (which is not a precise definition since different mathematical models might have different non-periodic parts). Anyway, the solution to the puzzle I started with is: the mean synodic month is getting both longer and shorter, depending on the unit of measurement. If we measure time by an absolute standard like an atomic clock, it is getting gradually longer. However, the rotation of the earth is getting slower at an even greater rate, so from the point of view of someone on Earth measuring time by day and night, the mean synodic month is getting shorter. The latter way of measuring is what matters for calendrical purposes. According to some calculations I did with the DE404 lunar-solar model from JPL, the mean synodic month exactly matched the Hebrew calendar value around 1 CE and is now about 0.6 seconds less (measured in earth rotations). The cumulative drift from 1 CE until now is about 125 minutes. McKay (talk) 01:12, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
Four months are named in the bible, before the Exile: 1st: Aviv (Exodus 13:4) 2nd: Ziv (1Kings 6:1) 6th: Éthaniym (1Kings 8:2) 7th: Bul (1Kings 6:38).
There's departure from this in the post-Exilic calendar.
The Hebrew calendar followed a 1000-year cycle, and there was no need for the initial 1000's digit when describing the year, since a lag of one day was generated for each 1000 years. I generated this from the verb rules for Hebrew. [3]
I contend that the current calendar (where the year doesn't match scripture [4]) is Chaldean.
The Talmudic divisions of a lunar cycle were revised in the first couple centuries AD. --No938 (talk) 03:41, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
The section Weeks has a very weak discourse, for example concluding that:
It is likely that the creation story seven-days was modelled after the Hebrew length of the week, but that then 1 ... 7 is modelled after 1 ... 7 is nonsential, except possibly in some very esoteric modern axiomatic logic. The "week names" are just a simple numbering translated to Hebrew, no names proper. ... said: Rursus (bork²) 10:48, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |